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  1. Title. Transcript of Proceedings before the Military Commission to Try Persons Charged with Offenses against the Law of War and the Articles of War, Washington D.C., July 8 to July 31, 1942
  2. Place. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota, 2004
  3. Editors. Joel Samaha, Sam Root, and Paul Sexton, eds.
  4. Transcribers. Students, University of Minnesota, May Session 2003, “Is There a Wartime Exception to the Bill of Rights?”
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Joel Samaha

Department of History

University of Minnesota

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Cover Sheet



Before the





Washington, D.C.

Saturday, July 25, 1942


Volume XV

Pages 2497 to 2574



Saturday, July 25, 1942


Name of Witness





George John Dasch





  By The Attorney General





  By Colonel Royall









In Evidence

Read in Record

F Statement 7/11/42,

   By Col. H. F. Kramer







Before the





Washington, D.C.

Saturday, July 25, 1942


          The Military Commission appointed by the President by order dated July 2, 1942, met, in room 5235 Department of Justice, at 10 o’clock a.m., to try for offenses against the Law of War and Articles of War, the following persons: Ernest Peter Burger, George John Dasch, Herbert Haupt, Heinrich Harm Heinck, Edward John Kerling, Hermann Neubauer, Richard Quirin and Werner Thiel.

          PRESENT:    Members of the Military Commission, as follows:

                              Major General Frank R. McCoy, President,

                              Major General Walter S. Grant,

                              Major General Blanton Winship,

                              Major General Lorenzo D. Gasser,

                              Brigadier General Guy V. Henry,

                              Brigadier General John T. Lewis,

                              Brigadier General John T. Kennedy.

                    As Trial Judge Advocates:

                              Honorable Francis Biddle,

                                        Attorney General of the United States.

                              Major General Byron Cramer,

                                        The Judge Advocate General, U.S. Army.

                              Colonel F. Granville Munson,

                              Colonel John M. Weir,

                              Major William T. Thurman,

                              Captain Lyle Keith,

                                        Officers of the Judge Advocate General’s Department.

                    As Provost Marshal:

                              Brigadier General Albert L. Cox.


                    As Counsel for the Accused except George John Dasch:

                              Colonel Cassius M. Dowell,

                              Colonel Kenneth Royall,

                              Major Lauson H. Stone,

                              Captain William G. Hummell.

                    As Counsel for the Accused George John Dasch:

                              Colonel Carl L. Ristine.

-         -         -         -         -



          The President.  The Commission is open.

          Colonel Munson.  The full personnel of the Commission, the eight accused, and the reporter are present.  The personnel of the prosecution is present except Colonel Treusch, Mr. Cox, and Mr. Rowe.  The full personnel of the defense is present except Captain Bruton.

          There is present in the courtroom this morning Captain Lyle Keith, who has already been sworn to secrecy outside the courtroom.  He is present in the courtroom this morning.  That appears of record in the case.

          The President.  You may proceed, Colonel Ristine.

          Colonel Ristine.  If the Commission please, prior to calling Dasch as a witness, I should now like to offer in evidence a statement of H. F. Kramer, of the General Staff Corps, whom Mr. Dasch called before he called the F.B.I. in Washington, D.C.  The Attorney General has very kindly agreed that since Colonel Kramer was ordered to another station and it would be embarrassing  for him to remain to appear personally, this statement may be used in lieu of the testimony of Colonel Kramer.  This is a sworn statement.

          The President.  Are the any objections on the part of


the other defense counsel or the prosecution?

          Colonel Royall.  No, sir.

          The Attorney General.  None at all.

          Colonel Ristine.  I might state that the Attorney General has called my attention to the fact that this statement is in the handwriting of Colonel Kramer and was sworn to, I think, by Colonel Weir, of the Judge Advocate General’s Department.  I shall read the statement.

          The President.  Please do.

          Colonel Ristine (reading):


                                                                      “July 11, 1942.

          “Statement by Colonel H. F. Kramer, G. S. C., reference to a telephone conversation with one George John Davis

          “On or about June 19, 1942, at about 9:00 A.M., George John Davis called my secretary and left word to call him at room 351, Mayflower Hotel.  I called about 10:00 A.M., asked for room 351.  A man responding to the name of George John Davis answered.

          “I told him who I was and he stated that he had some very important information which he desired to surrender to someone in authority.  On questioning by me he further stated that he had landed in charge of a group from Germany.  I then told him to stay where he was and I would be right over.  He then stated that he had already contacted the F.B.I. and they told him not to see anyone and stay where he was.  I then told


not to worry, that I would not bother him but would contact the F.B.I. regarding him.  The man seemed sincere and anxious to turn over what he had and slightly nervous.

“H. F. Kramer

“Colonel, G. S. C.

          “Sworn and subscribed to before me this 11th day of July, 1942, at Washington, D.C.

“John M. Weir

“Colonel, J. A. G. D.”

          I should like to offer that in evidence.

          Colonel Munson.  Is that to be Exhibit F, or should there be a separate set of exhibit letters for your defendant?

          Colonel Ristine.  I do not think it is necessary to have a separate set of exhibits, as we have so few.  I think it could be given the next defense exhibit letter.

(Statement of Colonel H. F. Kramer,

date July 11, 1942, was marked as

Defense Exhibit F, and received

in evidence.)

          Colonel Ristine.  If the Commission please, Mr. Dasch desires to take the stand.

                    (The defendant Dasch stepped forward.)

          The President.  Do you, defendant Dasch, understand that your counsel has stated that you desire to take the stand in your own behalf?

          Mr. Dasch.  Yes, sir.

          The President.  It is my duty to tell you that you have the legal right now to do one of several things, just as you choose.  First, if you want to do so, you may be sworn as a witness and testify under oath in this case like any other


witness; or second, if you do not want to be sworn as a witness, you may without being sworn say anything about the case to the Commission which you desire—that is, make what is called an unsworn statement—or you may if you wish file a written statement with the Commission; or third, you may if you wish keep silent and say nothing at all.

          If you do take the witness stand and fail to deny or satisfactorily explain any of the alleged wrongful acts to which you testify at all, and about which any evidence has been presented against you here, such failure on your part may be commented on to the Commission by the prosecution when the argument to the Commission is presented at the end of the trial, and the Commission may take it into consideration in determining whether you are guilty or innocent of the offenses.

          Do you understand fully all that has been said to you so far?

          Mr. Dasch.  Yes, sir.

          The President.  Knowing these various rights, take time to consult with your counsel and then state to the Commission which you will do.

          I take it, Colonel Ristine, that you have consulted with the defendant?

          Colonel Ristine.  I have consulted with Mr. Dasch previously.

          Mr. Dasch.  I wish to take the stand.

          The President.  The witness will be sworn in his own behalf.

          Colonel Munson.  Do you swear that the evidence you shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, an nothing but the


truth, so help you God?

          Mr. Dasch.  Yes, sir.

          Colonel Munson.  What is your full name?

          Mr. Dasch.  George John Dasch.

          Colonel Munson.  You are one of the defendants in this case?

          Mr. Dasch.  Yes, sir.


was called as a witness and testified as follows:


                    Questions by Colonel Ristine:

          Q       How old are you, Mr. Dasch.

          A        33 years old, sir.

          Q       I believe you were born in Germany?

          A        Yes, sir.  I was born February 7, 1903, in Speyer—in Germany.

          Q       Could you tell the Commission what time you came to the United States the first time?

          A        I entered the United States as a stowaway on board an American steamer, after being 17 days a stowaway, in the harbor of Philadelphia on or about the 11th day of October, 1922.

          Q       Did you thereafter convert that illegal entry into a legal entry?

          A        Yes, indeed.

          Q       Do you know what the date of that was?

          A        On or about October 19, 1923, I went down to the Barge Office for the purpose to find out my wrongdoing—whether I could rectify it—and I told them the truth of the


story how I entered the country.

          The officer I spoke to at first was very much surprised, and he told me, “Young man, you know what it means?  That makes my duty, then, to take you right over to Ellis Island and deport you.”

          I said, “I realize that,” so he took me to one of his higher officers, and I had to repeat my story again.  There I was asked what I have done—whether I had anything to do with the police, whether I had saved any money—and after I had answered all those questions, the officer told me—he said, “Young man, you have all the makings of a respectable citizen.  We will find a way for you to become—to be here legally.”  So, therefore, I was advised to have pictures taken and go over to the Customs House and pay $8.16 head tax.  After that I had to return, and I was furnished with an alien seaman’s identification card, which had stamped on the back, “Legally admitted to the United States and head tax paid” on that date.

          Q       If you can, do not go into the answering of questions quite so much in detail.  Just let us try to hit the highlights and make the answers as concise and short as possible.

          A        Very well, sir; I will try.

          Q       Did you ever make application for naturalization papers?

          A        Yes, sir.

          Q       Did you complete the naturalization process?

          A        No, sir, I didn’t.

          Q       What was the reason?  Just briefly, state why you did not complete your naturalization.

          A        In 1939, in the spring, I made application for final


citizenship papers.  The fact that I could prove that my wife, who had married in 1930, was a born American, it was for me necessary—after that I made my application.  I went to the Federal Court of Naturalization, filled out my papers, was called for cross-examination, I might say, and paid my money for it and received a number, which I was informed to wait until to be called in front of a Federal Court to be sworn in as a citizen.

          At that time my mother had arrived—had paid us a visit from Germany—and I had ample time to ask her about the conditions in as far as political as well as economic, as far as she knew.  She told me that the German people are wealthy or are in—or that conditions in Germany are in a very good shape; and prior to that I had quite a little struggle in the labor union and the American Federation of Labor, of which I have been a member of, by my actions, fighting, which I reasoned at that time was race hatred or class hatred.  I attacked that and many other things, taking the case of an underdog, which finally resulted in my being thrown out of the union with a charge for insubordination and spoiling the reputation of the American Federation.

          Thereafter with a group of other people, amongst them five American citizens, I introduced into the courts of the State of New York a legal application for the purpose of being granted the right to function or to establish an independent union.  This right to function was given by the courts.  This also the union fought, and this also was denied.

          When, then, the war broke out, and I seen I had not worked steady for at least six or seven months and spent all


my money—I had sold my wife’s business—my wife happened to be a beauty operator and had her own business—I sold that also and spent all that money in that fight.

          War broke out.  I said, “Well, this is the end.  I cannot see my way clear no more.  I think mother, after all, might have been right.  Maybe all this many years I might have been wrong about Hitler and about Germany.  Let us try to find it out.”

          Next my mother—or I was born on Speyer-on-the-Rhine, which is merely about ten or fifteen miles from the French Border.  My mother was right in the midst of war, and any son who tries to be a good son will do his duty to defend his mother, and that is why I said, “I have to go to Germany.”

          Q       Had you been a member of any of the Bund organizations in this country?

          A        I have never been a member of any German organization, socially or politically.

          Q       Well, do you intend that as all-inclusive and as including the Bund?

          A        That is correct, sir.

          Q       Now, had you prior to the time your mother visited you in 1939 been exposed, actively and otherwise, to Hitlerism and Naziism?

          A        Yes, indeed.

          Q       When you made the trip to Germany, as you say, on account of the assurances your mother gave you and because she was so close to the theater of operations, you say you thought that possibly she might be right about Hitler making things better for the German people and that you might be wrong in


your previous opinion?

          A        That is correct.  I made that trip for that one reason.  I wanted to go there and find out for myself whether they are right or whether I be wrong, and I am glad I went there.

          Q       Without going into detail about the matter, after you got there did you decide that you were right previously or that you were wrong previously?  Answer that without any detail.

          A        That is right.  When I got to Germany—

          Q       (Interposing) Just answer that question; whether you decided after you found out what the conditions were.

          A        I knew I was right.

          Q       Previously?

          A        That is correct.

          Q       And that the information your mother had given you was inaccurate?

          A        To an extent the woman was right, in so far as that the German people had suffered, had been actually in a war ever since 1914, and Hitler has undoubtedly accomplished on thing, namely, up until 1939, to give the people something for which they didn’t have, and that was work, but I saw they had work.  The people at that time didn’t know it.  In that respect my mother was right.

          Q       Well, the work that they had actually been engaged in was war preparation work?

          A        That I found out too soon, as soon as I got there.

          Q       I wish you would relate to the Commission an incident which occurred between you and your brother who lives in this country about your position with respect to Hitler.

          A        My little brother made a visit over to Germany in


1936 and came back in the fall with his wife.  It was his honeymoon trip.  His wife is also an American girl.  I paid him a visit, and I said, “How is it back there?  How is mother, and how is everything in general?”

          They had praise after praise of Germany, of Nazis, Naziism, Hitlerism, and for all his intentions, and so on, and pictured to me—well, tried to show me, in one way of reasoning, that Hitler wanted to do nothing else but the best for the majority of people in Germany, and I have told them, “Listen, children, you have been duped and have not seen it.  You don’t know what is actually behind this so-called Hitlerism.  Any policy of that kind will lead into war.  It will lead into destruction instead of what you—what we all should do is build up.”

          I got into such a heated argument with my little brother that he told me, “Unless you have changed your mind in this way of reasoning, I beg you to stay away from my house.”

          Q       Do you remember what time it was that you sailed for Germany?

          A        Yes, sir.

          Q       What date was it?

          A        I left New York on March 27—22, 1941, and left San Francisco on board the Japanese steamer Tatuta Maru on March 27, one o’clock.

          Q       Did you pay your own way on that trip, or did the German consul pay it?

          A        The German Government paid it; that is right.

          Q       I believe they required you to sign an I.O.U. slip for the amount?

          A        Prior—


          Q       (Interposing) Do not go into detail about it.  Did they require that?

          A        That is just what I would like to come out with the facts—the way they were represented at the time.  I was requested and drew up, first, a financial status—whether I had any debts in the country, and so on.  When finally it was decided that I only had about six hundred or seven hundred—that was in—far back as February—that is right; February of last year—that I had only about $600 or $700, it was decided by the German Consulate that the transportation of myself as well as my wife was to be paid by the Consulate, with the stipulation—as a matter of fact, I had to sign it—that this amount of money I would have to pay back when I got back to Germany.

          Q       Did you meet other people on the boat when you boarded it at San Francisco who were also going back to Germany?

          A        That is right.  I met a group of about 40 or 41 Germans—I think they were Germans—on the boat.

          Q       I think Werner Thiel was on the same boat, and you got acquainted with him on the same trip?

          A        That is right.

          Q       Were there any on the boat who disagreed with your ideas of Naziism and Hitler?

          A        Well, first of all, I would like to make that clear.  I was isolated on the boat for many reasons.  First of all, the majority of those fellow travelers—they either came from Chicago or from Cleveland, New York, or from Philadelphia.  They all knew each other through Bund movements, or whatever it


was.  I was a new man; no one knew me; and at the time I spoke a very poor German; and all that together helped to isolate me.

          The next thing, when they started, especially right after we left Honolulu—when they started to—well, to rave about Hitler and the ideas and the—well, in regards to the Jews in the United States, and so on, I talked of nothing else but defended the actions of the American people or my own self, just as I always did before.

          Q       Well, did they become pretty hostile toward you about that?

          A        Yes, indeed.  I received a very good licking, as a matter of fact.

          Q       You had a fight with them?

          A        That happened to be after we left Honolulu that night.  When we reached Honolulu, I went out all by myself.  I have been in Honolulu in the Army, and I thought to myself, “Well, I am going to go along with no one else.”

          When I came back that night, the first thing some of the boys that came back were a little bit—they had some drinks, I suppose—they came up to me and said, “Well, are you still here?  We all thought you were a spy or an F.B.I. agent.  Jesus, we never thought that you was a Dutchman.”

          That night, after we pulled out of the harbor, they all came together, and we sang some songs, and one, a rather heavy-set fellow.  They finally put on that Hitler sign.  From that moment on they all put on their signs, whatever it is—a round thing here—and one, the heavy-set fellow, he made himself leader, undoubtedly, and songs were—started to sing songs, and speeches were made, and finally “Heil Hitler”


started, and what else?

          I stood there with my hands in my back.  I have never saluted “Heil Hitler,” so he mentioned the fact again this way while I had my hands in my pocket.


          I didn’t pay much attention.  The next morning when I came back to the breakfast table a few fellows which had always fought with me in one way or another—one of the fellows said, “Listen, when you get back to Germany they will teach you manners.  They will make a Dutchman out of you.  Otherwise you will land up in the concentration camp.”

          I said, “What seems to be the trouble?  What did I do wrong?”

          This young man, he said, “Why, you dirty so-and-so, you stood with your hands in your pocket.  Don’t you know you insulted the Fuehrer?”

          I said, “My Christ, what if I did that?  What’s wrong?”

          He said, “We’ll teach you.”

          So when I stood on deck they bothered me, and one word led to another.  Three or four or five fellows tried to hit me, and I landed on top of the deck.

          I told them, “I can’t fight five of you fellows, but one at a time I am willing to do it,” but finally they all came and gave me a good beating up.

          From then on I was more isolated.

          Q       No, Mr. Thiel did not participate in that, did he?

          A        No, sir.  That only thing what I know definite was that I heard, between San Francisco and Honolulu, when I came down to the cabin where we had about twenty men in there, they were sitting all the way near the bull’s-eye, or, rather, the little window, and as I walked into the room I heard someone say—and I don’t know whether it was Thiel or anyone else—“Keep quiet.  Here he comes.”  That’s all.

          I asked myself, “What’s the idea?  Who am I?  Do they


trust me or who do they think I am?

          Then I recollect one statement which I suppose was made to all of us.  It was made by the German Consul in San Francisco, who we had to see, according to instructions, when we left New York.

          He said, “Young man, when you go aboard ship keep quiet.  Don’t talk to no one, especially even among your own people.  There might be agents of the F.B.I.”

          So I said to myself, “Why, do they actually think I am an agent?”

          That’s the only possible way I could find out—find an explanation for their actions.

          The Attorney General.  May it please the Commission, I think this witness is so unresponsive to the questions and is so wasting the time of the Commission that I do not think it would be inappropriate if the Commission directed him to be responsive and answer the questions.  His own counsel is trying to control him.  We will be here for a week if this kind of thing goes on.

          I request, with great deference, that the Commission ask this witness to be responsive to the questions and to hold him down to the answers, instead of going all over the lot this way.  I have never heard any evidence like this in my life.

          Colonel Royall.  May it please the Commission, I would like to join the request from the standpoint of the other defendants, for this reason.  It is impossible to tell from the question asked what the answer is going to be, and I do not know whether to object or not.  I would have to object to every question.  I do not know what he is going to say about


these other defendants.  That particular question, I think, if I recall, was, “Did the defendant Thiel join in this?”

          Colonel Ristine.  He answered that “No.”

          Colonel Royall.  H answered that “No,” but he did not stop there.  He went on with something that did not have anything in the world to do with the question.

          The President.  Have you any remarks, Colonel Ristine?

          Colonel Ristine.  Well, Mr. President, of course I would like to shorten the examination and boil down the answers.  It is difficult, unless I be permitted to ask leading questions, to boil it down in the English language as we would boil it down.  I mean, here is a defendant who feels that in order to correctly portray his thought it is necessary to go into some considerable detail frequently, when we, as we think, do not consider that that detail would be necessary.

          Now, of course, I do not want the witness curtailed to the point that he cannot convey the thought which he desires to convey to the Commission.  I realize the difficulty of transposing German to English.  Oftentimes in transposing you get just the opposite meaning if you do not understand both languages very well and very excellently.  Even translators have difficulty in that.  He does not have the mastery of the English language that we have, although he also knows German much better than any of us, and I do not know any.

          The President.  Well, I appreciate the point of both sides and recognize it is an earnest endeavor to get the truth in a clear way and without undue repetition.  I am just wondering if the two sides could possibly arrange it so that the witness could be helped on the lines that you indicate by


possibly referring to a statement which is already in evidence that might help getting a responsive answer.

          Would that be practical, do you think?

          The Attorney General.  No.

          Colonel Ristine.  Of course, if the Commission please, I am not prepared to interrogate him along those lines, because I could not segregate those questions, but if I could ask some leading questions—

          The President.  Well, proceed with your question, and I hope that the witness will follow the instructions of his own counsel and be responsive and direct in so far as he can be to the questions.

          The Witness.  I shall try to do so.

          Colonel Ristine.  If I may be permitted to ask leading questions, it would shorten the matter, I think.

          The President.  I think you can go ahead, having in mind the wishes of the other counsel.

                    Questions by Colonel Ristine:

          Q       Did any of the members on the boat threaten to report you when they arrived in Berlin because of what they termed your misconduct and disrespect?

          A        Yes, sir.  This—

          Q       I do not believe it necessary to go into the detail of it.  You have answered the question.

          A        Yes, sir.

          Q       Now, do you remember the date when you arrived in Berlin, or approximately when you arrived?

          A        May 13, 1941.

          Q       Upon your arrival there did you find work?


          A        No, sir, not right away.  I was told, when we were received, we had to fill out a lot of applications.  Then we were told we had two weeks’ time to go home, and then after that report for possible work.

          Q       But you did obtain employment?

          A        I did.  I officially went to work in the 6th day of June, 1941.

          Q       And where did you go to work?

          A        I was employed with the German Foreign Office.

          Q       Did you hold what we would term in this country a civil service position?

          A        No, sir.

          Q       What kind of position did you hold?

          A        Well, I have to come back right—one of the other defendants said a referent.  I would merely call it—

          Q       Were you a member of the military establishment?

          A        No, sir.

          Q       Well then, you were a civilian employee?

          A        That is correct.

          Q       In the Foreign Office?

          A        That is correct, sir.

          Q       Will you tell us what your duties were?

          A        I worked as a monitor with the Foreign Office in the American group.  Our work was to receive and translate all the transmissions from American stations.

          Q       In the performance of that work how long did you work?

          A        I had three different—

          Q       No.  I do not mean how long per day.  I mean how


long in months were you engaged in that kind of work?

          A        I was engaged in the Foreign Office from the 6th day of June, 1941, until the 28 th of February, 1942.

          Q       Now, during that time did you listen to any broadcasts of the President of the United States?

          A        Yes, sir.  To every one he made.

          Q       And did you listen to other commentators in the United States?

          A        Yes, indeed.  I listened to Secretary of War Knox, Secretary Stimson—let’s see.

          Q       Well, it is not necessary to give all of them; just generally.

          A        Then I listened to all the commentators, like Volney Hurd, from WRUL, Boston.  Then also daily to Graham Swing—Raymond Graham Swing.  Outside of that, to all the commentators of the NBC, National Broadcasting Company, as well as of the Columbia Broadcasting Company, which were stationed at Stockholm, London, Moscow, Vichy, Bern, Ankara, Cairo, and, un until last December, Singapore.

          Q       Now, who was your employer, so to speak, or your boss in this particular work that you were engaged in?

          A        Foreign Office.

          Q       Did you have occasion to meet or had you met in connection with that work the lieutenant whose name has been mentioned a good many times, Lieutenant Kappe?

          A        That is correct.  He is responsible—he is the man who gave me the job, who helped me so that I get the job.  As a matter of fact, he gave it to me—I mean he called up the head of the department which was known officially, German


Foreign office, Section R, standing for radio, I suppose, and the head of that was Mr. Ferra; and he called on the second day, I think, of June, 1941—he called this Mr. Ferra on the phone and told him that he has a man who is qualified for that kind of work, because he had only shortly before taken two men away from that service.

          Q       Well, when did you fist meet Lieutenant Kappe?

          A        Lieutenant Kappe I think I met him the first time on June 1st or the 2nd, 1941.

          Q       And that was in Berlin?

          A        That was room 1025 of the German High Command in Berlin.

          Q       You did not know him when he was in the United States?

          A        No, sir.

          Q       And had never met him in the United States?

          A        No, sir, no.

          Q       Lieutenant Kappe was the man, you say, who recommended you for this civilian job in the Foreign Office?

          A        That is correct, sir.

          Q       Now, in that position did you have an opportunity to learn of the conditions in Germany?  Without giving me any details, did you learn of the conditions of the people in Germany?

          A        Do you mind—I did not quite understand what you said, sir.

          Q       While you were working in this position as a monitor, did you have an opportunity to learn about the living conditions of the farmers and the laborers and the people in Germany?


Just tell me whether you did or did not.

          A        While I was working I had a chance to find out what was going on in Germany?

          Q       You went to work as a monitor in June, 1941?

          A        Yes.

          Q       And you worked until when?

          A        February 28, 1942.

          Q       And during that time did you have an opportunity to learn the true condition of the farmers and the merchants and the laboring people of Germany?  Without giving me any details, did you have an opportunity?

          A        Yes, sir, the best of opportunity.

          Q       Now, were those conditions of free people or were they more the condition of people in servitude, without giving any details?  I think in your statement you gave much detail about that.

          A        The condition I found there were the condition of people who were slaves.  They were not free people.  They not only were slaves as regard to their physical aspect, but also to their mental.  They did not have no right even to think.  Their freedom of mind was taken away from them and is being taken away from them today.

          Q       No, tell me this.  You, I believe, made statements to the various members of the F.B.I. and were interrogated by them over a period of about six or seven days; is that correct?

          A        That is correct, sir.

          Q       Now, during that time you went into minute detail about almost everything you discussed there, did you not?

          A        Yes, sir.  I told them everything I know.  When I


came there I said, “I would like”—

          Q       Without any detail, just answer the question.

          A        “I would like to give you everything I know.”

          Q       Now, were all the statements that you made in that document reduced to a written document during those five or six days after you first reported there?

          Let me see Exhibit A, if you have it there.

          I hand you Defendant’s Exhibit A and ask you to state if that is in sum and substance a transcript record of the statements which you made to the F.B.I. (handing a document to the witness)?

          A        Yes, sir.  This contains the statements and the answers to the questions which were put up to me.

          Q       And I believe that you signed each page of that?

          A        Yes, indeed.

          Q       And the certificate?

          A        That is correct, sir.

          Q       I wish you would tell the Commission if the statements made therein are true.

          A        Yes, sir, as far as I could recollect.  At the time when I went to Washington, well, my mental state was very much in a fog.  I was tied up in knots, and I had a hard time to remember names and dates and instances, and Mr. Traynor was very kind of helping me along, and things came back slowly.  I had it all in my mind, and little by little it came out—words and [4]  names and instances and dates, and so on, and that is all there.

          Q       Well, it is substantially correct and true?

          A        Yes, indeed.  Every word in there is true.


          Q       Now what decision did you come to after you learned the real condition of the German people, their condition of servitude, their lack of freedom, and all?  What decision without giving me any details now, did you come to in your own mind?

          A        First of all, I reached the decision that just by trying to be honest to yourself, this has to be fought.  Secondly, by just common sense, it was made clear to that effectively I could not fight it while I be in Germany—while I remain in Germany—so therefore I had to find a way to get out of Germany, and that is what I did. 

          Q       Now, you might tell the Commission how the opportunity first came up that you thought would serve that purpose in your desire to get out of Germany.  Just tell them, very briefly now, how that first came up.          

          A        In that office where I worked we had fifty-three languages were spoken, and therefore different members—members of different nationalities worked there, from a Chinese women to Indian, or representative of every county, practically, all over the world.

          I had ample opportunity to see both sides of it, also chances whether—looking for chances to get away.

          There was a girl working with me by the name if Leonhardt.  The young lady came to the United States when she was a child, and she must have lived there at least for twenty-five years, and she made one statement to me one night, “George, it is a crime for you to be here in Germany.  You could do so much more for your country somewhere else.”

          So I said, “What do you mean?”                       


          She said, “Well there are ways open, if you look for them, where you are able to get out.”

          She has often told me that she knew Lieutenant Kappe. 


          She also stated that she had been previously employed—at the time I still did not know what the real meaning of “Abwehr” was.  In other words, translated, it means “defense.”  When I asked her what it meant, she said “That is counterespionage, in the Censorship.”  I said, “Well, that is a good word.” I said to her, “Do you know anyone in there?”  She said, “Yes.”  So, finally, she gave me the address of a First Lieutenant Kobe, and after a few days I went down to Berlin to look up this office.  When I got there I found it was a hospital.  The number was given to me, and I came back to the girl and said,  “You must have given me the wrong address.  I tried hard to find it.”

          My landlady also was a leader of the Party, the women’s section of it, and all types of women visited her daily, and amongst them was young lady whom I met the first time in August, I believe, who had at that time returned for Sophia, Bulgaria; and after she had left my landlady said to me, “Do you know this young lady works for the German High Command?”  That was all.  I didn’t think any more of it.  Some time in November that young lady paid my landlady a visit again, so I approached her and said, “Pardon me.  I understand you work for the German High Command?”  She said, “Yes.” I said, “Could you tell me the meaning of ‘Abwehr or Counterespionage 3, Censorship’?” She said, “Why?” I said, “I am interested to get the number”—

          The President.  What was the question?                                  

          Colonel Ristine.  If the Commission please, I realize that if you do not know the difficulties that he was experiencing over there in finding a way to get out of Germany and                     


still not disclosing his innermost feelings to the point that he would be summarily executed, it is difficult to follow; but the question that I asked him was to state very briefly the information that he obtained respecting a method by which he could get out of Germany for the purpose of fighting the conditions. 

          The President.  I take it you have introduced in evidence this former statement of his?

          Colonel Ristine.  That is correct.

          The President.  And which he states is true?

          Colonel Ristine.  That is true.

          The President.  And this is a repetition of that?

          Colonel Ristine.  It is repetition; yes, sir.  I agree that it is repetition.  I debated whether or not there was any necessity for his taking the stand, but he desired to take the stand, and I desired that the Commission might have and opportunity to observe him as a witness and to listen to him; and I am just trying to his the highlights. 

          The President.  Proceed. 

          Colonel Ristine.  Let me make this observation.  It was so difficult, under the conditions that existed over there, for anybody to get out of Germany after they were once in Germany, that I think it is necessary to go into some detail about the matter. 

          The President.  Proceed. 

          The Witness.  The young lady said to me, “If you are interested, give me your story.  Have you got any recommendation?”  I said, “I worked for the foreign office here and there, and a Lieutenant Kappe.”  She said, “Lieutenant

Kappe?  I know him personally.”  That is all.        


          On the following Monday or Tuesday I received a letter form Reinhold Barth, who is the husband of my first cousin, and he requested me to come down to his office.  He said, “Listen.  This fellow Kappe is very sore at you.  He wants you to go right up to his office.”  I said, “What for?” He said, “I believe he is going to use you somehow.”  I said, “What do you mean—use me?  What is that?  What is he doing?”

          So he explained to me some of it, as far as he knew—this “Abwehr” or counter-espionage.

          So, when I came up there to him Mr. Kappe asked me, “Do you remember the time when you were down here on or about the second of June, after I had given you a jobs?  I asked you to do one thing, namely, if you have anything on your mind or anything that is not going right, kindly always come back here.  Why didn’t you do it?”

          I said, “You did me a favor once, and I thought you did me a personal favor.” And he said, “No; that is not so.  I always want you to come back here.  I have first call on your service.”  I said, “What service?”  He said, “Well, I can’t explain it to you; but what is your object in contacting Intelligence 1?” So I told him, “I undoubtedly can do more duty to my county by exercising this kind of work, whatever they think I am fitted for.” So that day he said—I think it was around the 26th or 27th of November, or the end of November—he merely said, “I want to tell you something, boy.  I want you to forget this Intelligence 1, and in the next few days I shell get in touch with you, either direct or through Reinhold Barth.” A few days later I received from Intelligence 1—rather,                    


from this young lady — not a letter through the mail, but this young lady brought me a letter, and I was requested to go to a certain section in Berlin, a private apartment.  At that hour when I came there there was not one there.  After a short while waiting a young lady came and took me upstairs into a private apartment and after a while I was introduced to a Dr.  Wessel.  The man asked me questions.  “Where have you been?  Do you know America?”


          “Do you know England?” I said. 

          “I have been in England, but I don’t know it well.”

          “Do you know South America?”

          “I have never been there.”

          “Do you know the Middle East?”

          “I have not been there either.”

          “Do you know Russia?”

          “I went only through Russia by train.”

          “Do you know Ireland?”

          I said, “I have only been in Galway; that is all.”

          So he cross-examined me and asked me questions for about an hour and asked me to write a version of my own imagination, on How do I get to America? 

          So I went back to Berlin, into the business section, and went to the Hooten Company which had a branch there, the North German Lloyd and the Hamburg-American Line.  I wanted to find out what ways were still open at the time, what ways were open for a man who has a pass or is given the right to go out.  So I was told there was an Italian air line company still operating from Italy somewhere into northern Africa,             


and that again is flying over to Pernambuco or Natal in Brazil. 

          After I got that information I went to the Brazilian department to find out what they know about Brazil.  I went to get all the information I could, and then I sat down and wrote a story of how I could go to America, and the story was using this airway over to Chile, to Valparaiso, trying to get a boat, to either get a job on the boast or as a passenger and going to an American harbor and there just landing. 

          The Attorney General.  I cannot help, Mr. President, objecting to this procedure again.  In the first place, none of this answer was responsive.  All of it was irrelevant.  It has all been stated before in almost exactly the same words; and I think that this witness is impertinent to the Commission by going into this kind of thing, in view of the courtesy that the Commission has given.  I think it is highly improper and inappropriate, and I cannot help protesting on the record and objecting to this kind of procedure before the members of the Commission. 

          Colonel Ristine.  If the Commission please, I believe if the Attorney General had gone more into detail with respect to the difficulties and obstacles which anybody in Germany was confronted with who desired to get out of Germany, he would realize that this was pertinent, very pertinent.

          The President.  Proceed with your questions, but see that the answer does not go on indefinitely in reply. 

                    Questions by Colonel Ristine:

          Q       At any rate, Mr. Dasch, you did pursue every avenue that was presented as a possible means of getting out of


Germany, before you were successful in connecting with the means by which you ultimately got out?

          A        Yes, sir; I looked for every possible way there was. 

          Q       You did ultimately fins a way by which you thought you could get out of Germany.  Is that correct?

          A        Yes, indeed.

          Q       And that had to so with the sabotage school and what followed; is not that correct?

          A        Only at the second meeting did I know that there was a sabotage school or—

          Q       I did not ask you for those details.  All those details have been given.  Just state this to the Commission.  When you were endeavoring—

          The President.  Please put it in the form of a question.  We have had statements ad lib.  I would like, if you can, to have you out it in the form of a question that will bring forth a reply that you wish to put before the Commission.  But I think that by calling for statements you lay us open to wasting a great deal of time on information that we already have in statements. 

          Colonel Ristine.  I do not believe, Mr. President, that I quite understand.  I was attempting to ask a question in leading form so it could be answered yes or no. 

          The President.  I wish you would do that, so that the answer will not appear in the form of another statement. 

          Colonel Ristine.  I am endeavoring to avoid these long, detailed statements. 

                    Questions by Colonel Ristine:

          Q       Mr.  Dasch, did you have any thou ht in your mind 


of in any way aiding Naziism or Hitler when you attempted to follow these various leads in an effort to get out of Germany, after you got of Germany?

          A        No, sir; at no time.   

          Q       In other words, your sole desire was to get out of Germany by whatever process was necessary to give you an opportunity to fight Naziism and Hitlerism which was then present in Germany?

          A        Yes sir.

          Q       Is that the sole reason that you entered into this sabotage school work?

          A        Yes, sir.  That is the only, sole reason I entered the sabotage school.

          Q       You met, I think, the other seven defendants at that school?

          A        I met some of the defendants sooner, and some of the defendants I met while I was at the school.

          Q       Well, you met them all?

          A        Yes.

          Q       And you all went to school there?

          A        That is right, sir.

          Q       Was there any occasion when you had a conversation with Burger when Burger indicated his mental condition to you respecting the school and in which you illustrated your mental condition with respect to it and, if so, relate it?

          A        I would have to go into a little detail.  I cannot say yes or no to that.

          Q       You had a conversation with Burger, did you not?

          A        Yes.

          Q       When he tried to unbosom himself to you? 


          A        Yes, sir.

          Q       Just tell the Commission what happened in that conversation, if it was short.

          A        Before we went to school, among my records of every man I was also given the record of the defendant Burger, which stated that he had been in a concentration camp, and so on. 

          Q       For 17 months, was it not?

          A        Yes.

          Q       Just tell is the conversation you had with him.

          A        On the first Saturday night all of us went over to a restaurant about 30 or 35 minutes’ walk form school, and Burger and I walked two or three hundred yards ahead of the others, and I said, “Tell me your side of the story of this internment.  The other side I know.”  So he merely said, “Why, the dirty”—I can’t recall just the words he used—“That dirty Nazi Himmler,” he said.  I said, “That is enough.  Please keep quiet.  Don’t say nothing no more.  The day and the time will come when I will reopen it again to you; but now do me a favor and say nothing, not even that I asked you.  Forget it.”

          Q       You did know at the time of the 17 months that he served in a concentration camp and the suffering that he had gone through?

          A        I didn’t know about his sufferings.  I only knew the case as it was presented in a file which I read, and there I seen the judicial end of it, as I would call it.

          I asked Lieutenant Kappe, “As far as you know, did that boy get sent to a concentration camp for his own personal reason, or what?”  He merely said, “He made a mistake.  He wanted to help the Polish people.”  That was all I wanted


to know from him. 

          Q       Well.  You got in the submarine, finally, with the other seven defendants; is that right?        

          A        No.

          The Attorney General.  The other three.

                     Questions by Colonel Ristine:

          Q       The other three of the group that you were with?

          A        That is right.

          Q       I believe you were selected as leader of that group?

          A        I was selected as leader away back before school started. 

          Q       You got over to the Long Island coast?

          A        That is correct, sir.

          Q       And you and the other three, with two sailors, landed?

          A        That is correct, sir.

          Q       In a rubber boat?

          A        Yes, sir.

          Q       Were the sailors armed?

          A        The two sailors—I believe they had, outside of a signal gun, also they had pistols.  I am not quite sure whether they had or not.  But I know they were two of the biggest, youngest, handsome, strapping, young sailors.

          Q       Were any of the group, you or the three other defendants, armed?

          A        No, sir; at no time.

          Q       Had you objected to Lieutenant Kappe’s suggestions that you come over here armed?  You can answer that yes or



          A        I objected with everything I had. 

          Q       Well, you objected to coming over here armed?

          A        Unarmed.

          Q       You wanted to come unarmed?

          A        Yes, indeed. 

          Q       And that was granted you?

          A        Yes; and I had a hard fight to convince him.

          Q       When you landed I believe you saw, or during the landing I believe you saw, a member of the Coast Guard?

          A        That is right.

          Q       Would you tell the Commission very briefly what your conversation was with the Coast Guard man?

          A        After we had left the rubber boat I had, according to instructions—

          Q       Just talk about the conversations with the Coast Guard man.

          A        The boy was walking toward the two sailors and myself, and I ran right up to the boy because he had a flashlight, and I figured he was not one of our boys.  He said, “What are you going down here?”  So I said, “Well, we left Southampton to go down to Montauk Point and we got lost and landed here.”


          He said, “What do you mean—Montauk Point?  Do you know where you are?”

          “Well,” I said, “I don’t believe I know where we landed.  You should know.”

          So, he told me it was Amagansett. 

          “That is my section up here—Amagansett.” 

          So I said, “You had better come along, boy.”

          He said, “No, I can’t do that at this time.  I can’t do that.”

          Little Burger happened to come down with that bag of clothes and those uniforms, or whatever it is called, and he approached me.  He may have said something in German. 

          I told him, “Boy you had better get back there to the other fellows,” and the two sailors—before I spoke to the boy, I happen to go back to the sailors, and I said, “You get back on the boat,” and we couldn’t see further than about 15 or 20 yards. 

          While I was talking to the boy, I seen those two sailors leaving the boat—leaving the shore going towards the submarine, so I went over to the boy. 

          I said, “Listen.” I seen the boy was scared.  I was scared as well as the boy.  I said to the boy, “I want to tell you.  You don’t know who I am, and you don’t know what I am intending—why I as here; but please: you have a mother and you have a father.  I don’t want anything to happen to you.  You have done you duty.  You have sworn to.”

          I said, “Therefore, I am going to offer you a bribe, and by taking it, it is your duty.  Please do so.  Take it.  You will hear from me from Washington.”

          But the boy said, “No I can’t do it.  I can’t take it.”


          I said, “Listen.  Look.  You take my word.  Here is some money.”

          Two hundred or $210 I gave him first, and the boy took it.

          So, I went back to the boy again, and I said “Let me see how much money you got.”

          He wouldn’t do it at first.  So, finally he took it out and he out that flashlight on the money while I was counting, but I seen it was only a little over $200, so I gave him additional up to $300. 

          I said to him, “Boy, take a good look at me, will you please?”  I took my hat off.  I said, “Look.  Will you recognize me at any time?  Can you see me good?”  I said, “The day will come when you will see me in or you will hear from me from Washington.”  

          So, I asked him, “What are you going to do with the money?”  

          He said, “Well, I am going to have a good time.  Some I will give to my mother, some I will put in the back, and a little bit I will have a good time.”

          I said, “Boy, it is all right.  You will hear from me.”  And the boy said, “Now, scram out of this place here.”  That was that.  The boy walked away; I walked over to the fellows. 

          Q       Had you previously told the two sailors who brought you shore to go back to the boat?

          A        To scram, yes; to get going.

          Q       The captain had instructed you and your group before you left that if you met anybody on the shore.  To overpower them and send them back to the U boat?


          A        Yes, sir; not only the captain.  But this was also ruled or brought to bear on us while in school, that in case—

          Q       (Interposing) Well.  Now was it part of the plan which you had formulated in Germany to fight Hitler?  Is that the reason you disregarded that instruction when you met this lone guardsman on the beach?

          A        Why, I didn’t come here to kill anyone; I came here to be a part of what I thought I should be, a part of--a person to do his very utmost to fight Hitler; that is all; and by killing someone who is on the side of us, how could I be a  part of it?  I would be just contrary.

          Q       The guardsman was unarmed, was he not?

          A        That I don’t know, but I think the boy was unarmed.

          Q       You did not see any arms?

          A        No, sir. 

          Q       Without going into detail, you did get to the railway station?

          A        Yes, indeed.

          Q       All four of you were together at that station?

          A        Yes sir.

          Q       Tell the Commission whether you has in mind making whether you debated making a telephone call at that station, and is so, what call.

          A        Well, I sit in the station between four-thirty up to six—up until about close to seven o’clock.  I didn’t know what to so.  How could I?  What should I do first?  Call up Washington?  Whom should I call?  Should I go over there and call?  I didn’t know what to do. 

          I figured, “Wait a minute.  I have to keep these fellows


together.  That is, after all, my main job, to come here first”; or it became my main job to see to it that this so-called sabotage shall never happen, and that all those connected with it are, including myself—are being brought to the right place. 

          That was my job at that time, and for the purpose of not showing my hand, I couldn’t at that time run away or do anything else; I had to hold them together; but I would have to still fool them that I am a so-called Nazi man, or whatever it is.  I decided not to call up on the phone but go along with them and keep them believing in me—who they thought I was; that is all. 

          Q       You sent on into New York?

          A        We went to Jamaica, first, sir.

          Q       I understand.  We will skip Jamaica.  You did go on into New York?

          A        That is right, sir. 

          Q       You and Burger went to what hotel?

          A        The Hotel Governor Clinton, sir. 

          Q       Did you give the other two boys any suggestion about where they should go?

          A        At the prearranged stage—

          Q       (Interposing) Did you tell them where to go?

          A        Yes. 

          Q       Where did you tell them to go?

          A        The Chesterfield Hotel, on 49th Street. 

          Q       They did not actually go there, did they?

          A        I found that out the next day.

          Q       Well, I did not ask for details.  They did not actually go there?   


          A        No, sir, they didn’t go there.

          Q       When was it that you first reopened with Burger the subject that he had started when you were at the school in France?

          A        The opening actually happen on Sunday morning, but on Saturday night, while we have been in the hotel dining room, I have told him, “Boy”—I said, “Boy, I have a lot to talk to you, and I have to tell you something,” and Burger merely said, “I know what you are talking, and I know for a long time what you are going to tell me.”

          Q       Then, on Sunday morning you did have a heart-to-heart talk with Burger?

          A        That is correct. 

          Q       In that conversation Burger disclosed to you that he never had had any intention of doing any acts of sabotage, and his only desire was to get out of Germany?

          A        Yes, sir, indeed.

          Q       You disclosed to him that you had had the same intent?

          A        I have told him—I said, “I am here on the fourteenth floor.  I am going to tell you the truth who I am, and if you don’t like it, and if you think it is wrong, throw me out.”

          As a matter of fact, in the morning I said to him, “Now, I want the truth, nothing else; and irregardless of that it is, if you don’t like what I do or I don’t like what you do, either I go out of the window or you go out the window.” Both windows were open in the fourteenth floor. 

          Q       But what actually happen when you unbosmed your innermost thoughts was that you were both of the same mind; is that correct?


          A        Yes, sir.  I had thought—I stated to Burger—I stated, “Every one of those boys from the beginning, I met them continuously—every one of them.  I had to.  I knew the moment I met them that I had to meet them like a buddy, and I had to give them a hand, and I had to say to myself, ‘Hey, the day will come when I will see it as my duty to bring you to the law’.”  That is all.

          Q       After you got to New York, did you get in contact with the FBI agents there?

          A        That Sunday morning, while we were talking—

          Q       (Interposing) Answer my question.  Did you get in contact with the FBI?

          A        Yes, sir, that is correct. 

          Q       That was Sunday evening.

          A        Sunday evening, seven-forty or seven-fifty.

          Q       World you just tell the Commission that conversation you had with the FBI on that occasion?

          A        I had taken the telephone number in the morning in the hotel; as a matter of fact, I looked up from the book—

          Q       (Interposing) Just tell is the conversation.

          A        I told them that I am a German citizen that arrived in this county yesterday morning and that I had a statement to make and that I wish for him to instruct his Washington office that I will be in Washington either Thursday or Friday this coming week, because I was mentally not—I was mentally not at ease; I was all tied on knots.  So, he questioned me: “Why don’t you come—“

          Q       (Interposing) Limit your statement to what you said to him and what he said to you.


          A        Yes.  Furthermore, then I—we had a little talk.

          I said to him.  “Now, mark that down, please.  I, Franz Daniel Pastorious, shall try to get in contact either Thursday or Friday with Mr. Hoover in Washington, and kindly refer that to Washington.”  

          I have told him that I am 39 years of age and that I have a gray streak though my hair.

          Q       They wanted you to come to the office?

          A        That is correct. 

          Q       You would not do this?

          A        I have them—I said, “I think it is, to my way of reasoning, the best place, and the only person who should know that is Mr. Hoover.”

          Q       That was Sunday night?

          A        That is right, sir.

          Q      Did you come to Washington on Thursday morning on Thursday?

          A        On Thursday evening at seven-fifteen, I think. 

          Q       You got in here at seven-fifteen?

          A        That is right. 

          Q       Did you get in tough with anybody on Friday morning?

          A        Yes, sir; in time, sir.

          Q       Whom did you call first with respect to any official call?

          A        I still did not know at that time whether the information I had was—I should go wither to the military intelligence or to the FBI.  I couldn’t make that part.  So, I called up, first, the Governmental Information and merely inquired there which would be the best place to go to in regards   


to disclosing military-information of a military value.  So, I was given tow numbers: first, Colonel Kramer, I think and then the second on the FBI. 

          So, I called up, first, Colonel Kramer.  He wasn’t in.  I instructed his secretary to call me back from his office.  After that I go tin touch with the FBI and told them that I would like to see them, and I spoke to Mr. Trayner, and he requested me to be down at the office at eleven o’clock.  I said I would like to go sooner if possible, and he said, “Come right over, them.”

          I said, “Would you be so kind as to send a man over, because I don’t know Washington well?” and he agreed to that.  So I got ready; I dressed, then.

          Q       Did Colonel Kramer of the General Staff Corps call you back? 

          A        Yes.  While I was dressing, Colonel Kramer called back. 

          Q       That was after you had talked to the FBI?

          A        That is right.

          Q       All right.

          A        I have told him that he was late already, because I had just contacted the FBI and have requested them that I would see them and that a man was over here, so he asked me what was it all about, so I have told him that I am a boy—a German who was only been in the county a few days, and later I think I even mentioned sabotage to him—I don’t know—and that I wanted to get this to the right place, and I said, “ I think the one I have contacted is right.”  

          So, he asked me, “Kindly keep in contact with me, will


you, please, Mr. Davis?” that was my name I used. 

          I said to him, “Yes, either I shall myself or through the FBI—through Mr. Trayner,” and that was all there was about it.

          Q       They did send a man to accompany you over to the FBI?

          A        They sent five men, I think.

          Q       Anyhow, you did accompany one if them over to the FBI?

          A        Yes, indeed, sir.

          Q       From that time forward, I believe, you discussed the matter with them for some five or six days; is that right?

          A        At first when I came to the office—

          Q       (Interposing) Just answer my question.

          A        Sir?

          Q       Did you not discuss the matter with them for some five or six days thereafter?

          A        Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday.  Yes, five days.

          Q       I believe that when you first started talking to them there was no stenographer present?

          A        That is correct?

          Q       You had talked with them probably thirty minutes to an hour?

          A        Not an hour; I think thirty minutes.

          Q       Did not Mr. Traynor tell you sometime during that first day, quite a while after you started telling your story, that he though you were a crackpot?

          A        Well, I don’t know whether it was at the end of the  


first day or it was on the next day.

          He said to me, “You know, George when you came to my office here, I didn’t believe you; I thought you were a crackpot-clown”, something like that—“I just didn’t believe you.  The finally when you opened up—then I knew we had something after all.”  That is all

          Q       Well, you did, insofar as you could, tell the entire story from beginning to end to the agents of the FBI?

          A        As I got there, I have told them who I was, that I came with a bunch of boys, that some were down South—

          Q       D0 not give detail again.  It is all in the statement.

          A        No, I beg your pardon; that is not in there.

          Q       Well, it is substantially in there. 

          A        No, sir.  The first thirty minutes there is nothing mentioned in there.  It starts off—

          Q       (Interposing) But the whole thinks is substantially in there is it not?

          A        Yes, as it came out; that is right.

          Q       I do not want to go into the detail again.

          A        No, I don’t wish to so that either, sir.

          Q       Did you ever at any time have any intention, in your efforts to get out of Germany, to do anything other than fight Naziism and Hilterism?
          A        My way—the main reason why I left Germany was to go out and do my share as a humanly Dutchman to fight that what id unhuman in Germany.  That was my first idea or ideal I fought for or I thought; but when I them came in contact with    


the German High command and I seen the dirty work they wanted to do, them that because my first duty—to do my duty to see to it that this will never happen.  In order to do that, I fought for the idea that nothing should be done for at least three or four months. 

          Why did I have to do that?  Because at that time I didn’t know that we were going on a submarine; and if we went to the submarines, whether I went first or someone else went first, or whether I never get to the United States on a submarine, or whether they land here or they land there.  I had to give myself a leeway.

          In order to see to it that nothing was done for at least three months, during that time I would be able to either be there first—I reasoned when I got in the submarine possibly something happened to the submarine and then go back again and I go four weeks later, so, therefore, I knew that this thing-that nothing should be done for at least two or three months.  

          My reasons for it was, which I explained to the German high command—to Captain Astor and Major Hotzel, those people don’t know that—“You must give those men an opportunity to live there first,” and they feel for it. 

          As a matter of fact, it was a sound argument, and they hooked it, but my main reason was nothing should be done at least for two or three or, perhaps, four months, because I didn’t know at that time that I would land now with four men.  I didn’t even know whether I would land with four men on the boat.  It is possible we only could with two men in the boat. 

          Q       Kappe, I believe, wanted you to start the sabotage    


work pretty shortly after you arrived?

          A        Well, at the beginning it was the plan when Major Hotzel and Lieutenant Astor—  

          Q       (Interposing) I do not want any long explanation.  Did he or did he not want you to start the sabotage work shortly after you arrived?

          A        They said, “Four weeks is plenty of time for anyone to get himself acclimated.”

          Q       You wanted additional time?

          A        Oh, yes.

          Q       So that you could formulate a proper presentation of the matter and take care of any contingencies in landing, and whatnot; is that right?

          A        I talked for more time, so that nothing would happen in case I should not land with them.

          Q       You got more time, did you not?

          A        Yes, indeed.

          Q       I believe it is in the record, but you know that during your entire discourse with the FBI you were in protective custody and not in arrest; is that right?

          A        During the time of my stay in Washington, I was in protective custody.

          Q       What time did you first learn that you were arrest?
          A        Officially, I found out in the 28th or 29th of June, when I been the second or the third day in the jail in New York City.

          Q       There was something said about an effort to get you to plead guilty in the District Court or in the Federal Court


in New York.  I do not care to go into the detail.  Did you agree, for the purpose of protecting your father and mother that you would enter a plea of guilty and would therefore receive a Presidential pardon within three to six months?
          A        I agreed to that that Saturday night, yes, sir.


Q       And then after thinking it over did you change your mind?

          A        I didn’t think it over.  There were a few physical facts which actually made me think—realize what I was going to do. 

          As I went upstairs and was brought back to the cell I happen to look outside, because I was given the promise downstairs “That’s the only possible way for you, George, to keep everything quiet.  No one shall know it.”  And when I went upstairs I happened to look out the slit, and there, at 11 or 12 o’clock, sat an agent with a newspaper.  My picture was in front. 

          I said, “What?  They promised me that, for that reason, and they are going just that opposite.  What is going on?”

          I said, “You have been on the defense continuously.  Why don’t you look at this real.  They want you to plead guilty to an offense you know you did not commit.  You are obstructing justice.  I can’t do it.”

          That same night I requested to see Mr. Donegan, and the next day when he came he said, “What do you want, George?”

          I said, “Mr. Donegan, what was agrees to last might I could not do.”

          He merely said to me, “Well, it is in the papers,” and he walked out, and I never seen him no more.  I seen him down here in the courthouse.

          I requested day for day, all the time, to see an agent or representative of the Office of the F.B.I. continuously, and I did not—

Q       Wait a minute.  What are you taking about now?          


A        While I have been in jail up there.

Q       In New York?

A        That’s right.

Q       Of course, you were in continuous session here in Washington?

A        Yes.

Colonel Ristine.  I think you may examine.


                    Questions by the Attorney General:

          Q       There are just one of two small matters that I would like to clear up.  I am not perfectly clear in my own mind about them, Dasch.

A        All right, sir.

          Q       When did you first meet Kappe?

          A        I met Kappe in June 2nd, 1941, I think either the 1st or 2nd of June, 1941.

          Q       And at that time was the talk with reference to your intelligence work only?

          A        No, sit.  At that time nothing was said.  I merely was crosses—examined to the time of stay in American and what I did.

          Q       Did he seem to have your record then?
          A        At that time—I would like to make that clear.

          Q       Now, just wait.  Make it clear afterwards.  Just say yes or no.  Did he have your record them?

          A        No record.

          Q       That is all I want to know.  Now, would you like to explain?

          A        Yes.


Q       All right.

          A        When I saw him in November the first time he said, “Do you remember in the 2nd of June when I saw you the first time?  You met another person who was in civilian clothes?”

          I said, “Yes.”

          “I took you out of this office and went to another office?”

          I said, “Yes.”

          “Everything that was said at that time was made on a record.”

          Q       We understood, a dictaphone.  Now, let us come down to the second time, that was June 3rd, was it?  I mean, after the January meeting you did not see him for some time, did you?

          A        I met him again at a gathering of what we called the German-American—well, it is a gathering of former German American people who have been in the United States—where Lord Haw-Haw spoke.

Q       What is Haw-Haw’s name?

          A        I think Perkins.  I am not quite sure of that.

          Q       Did you know him?

          A        No, sir.

          Q       Well, you saw Kappe there.  Did Kappe talk to you there about anything special?

          A        He merely said to me, “Well, Mr. Dasch, how are you doing out there in the office?”

          Q       Were any of the other defendants at that meeting?

          A        No, sir.


Q       After that it was not until January that you talked to Kappe?

          A        No, sir.  I met him the first time again in the end of November.

          Q       The end of November?

          A        That’s right.

          Q       What was the talk in November about?

          A        He wanted to know why I got in contact with Espionage-1.

          Q       Was there any talk about what he wanted you to do in November?

          A        No, sir.

          Q       Any other time in January?

          A        Oh, January?

          Q       I say, any other time until you met him in January?

          A        I knew already, I think , on the 2nd or 3rd of December that I was supposed to go to America, that actually—

          Q       Wait just a minute.  When did you next meet Kappe?  Is what I am trying to get at.

          A        I think it was the 2nd or 3rd of December.

          Q       What did he say to you in the 2nd or 3rd of December?

          A        At that time-

          Q       I do no want all the conversation.  Did he talk about your going to America?

          A        He said, “I am now in a position to tell you more about what I want to use you.  I want you to go to America.”

          Q       Had you told him before that you did want to go to America?

          A        No, sir.


Q       That is all.  No.

          A        That’s right.

          Q       What else did he say about your going to America on December 3rd?

          A        He said that the German High Command wants a group of people to go to the United States to sabotage.

          Q       To sabotage?

          A        That’s right.

          Q       So it was in December that you first heard about sabotage?

          A        That is correct.

          Q       And then he asked you, Would you be interested?

          A        I told him, “What do you mean, United States”—

          Q       Now, Dasch, listen to what I say, please.  Did he ask you if you would be interested?  I did not ask you what you said to him.

          A        Yes, indeed.  I told him I was interested.

          Q       You told him you were interested.  Did he ask you to draw up a little memorandum about it?

          A        That is correct.

          Q       Then you went of and spent several days on the memorandum, or several hours?

          A        Oh, several days, indeed.

          Q       Several days?

          A        Yes.

          Q       Where did you get your material to write up the memorandum?

          A        Out of my own head.

          Q       Out of your own head?                


A        That’s right.

Q       How long was the memorandum?

A        Five page.

Q       Five pages?

A        Yes.

          Q       Did it talk about conditions in America, plants, railroads and so on?

          A        No, sir.

          Q       What did it talk about?

          A        I had it itemized, first of all, in three different kinds of sabotage—political, industrial, and military sabotage—and I described each of those separately.

          Q       Never mind.  Let us leave the political out.  We are not interested in political.  Let us get the next. 

          A        The industrial sabotage I referred to—what I meant that time is the difference between the labor unions which exist between the American Federation of Labor and the C.I.O.-that this possible element or fact could be nourished. 

          Q       Well, enough for that.

          A        And then I went into the military sabotage.

          Q       Military sabotage.  How many pages were on the military sabotage?

          A        The—

          Q       How many pages?

          A        Well, the last two.

          Q       The last two.

          A        That—

          Q       All right.  You have answered that question.

          A        I would like to say that straight.  I would like to  


say the truth.  Military sabotage was merely just like any others, and I went ala the way down even to the—how a man should carry himself, and that was in there.

          Q       That you took back to Kappe?

A        That’s right.

          Q       Did it impress him a good deal?  Was he interested?  He complimented you on it?

          A        Not at that time.

          Q       Did he later compliment you?

          A        Yes, indeed.

Q       He told you it was a good job?

A        Not only himself, but also Captain Astor.  He complimented me.

Q       Where did you get your ideas about military sabotage from?

A        Well, when you are in my position where I have been in, you get all kinds of ideas.  You want to get going.  In order to get going you have got to impress that you are able t do something.

Q       Dasch, will you answer the question I am asking you?  I did not ask you for a reason.  I said, Where did you get your ideas about military sabotage from?  Will you answer that?

A        Yes, sir.

Q       Go ahead and answer that.

A        From the radio; from my work.

Q       From the radio?

A        That is correct.

          Q       What particular radio messages or talks did you get your ideas from?


A        Every night either Martin Agronsky or Sulzberger spoke every night about sabotage work which is going on by the Chetniks in Yugoslavia.

Q       So you knew a good deal about military sabotage?

A        Yes, sir.  That is where I learned it.

          Q       Did Kappe know that you knew a good deal about military sabotage?

          A        As a matter of fact, this I don’t know.  I don’t know whether he knew it or not.

Q       You do not know whether he knew it or not?

A        That’s right.

          Q       When did you next see Kappe after you have him this memorandum?

A        Thereafter I seen him sometime again after the United States had entered the war—I think just before Christmas.

Q       Well, what happen at that meeting?

A        He them told me again a little more, mainly, that it is going to be more than myself- I first thought it was only myself- it is going to be more than myself and that the people who take part in it will have to go through a schooling.

Q       All right.  Now, did you at that time suggest any names to him that would be useful in the job?

A        What names?

Q       Names of persons to help you.

A        No, sir.

Q       When did you first suggest the names?

A        What names are you referring to?

Q       I am not referring to anyone.  I said, When did you first suggest to Kappe names of persons who could help you do   


sabotage work?

A        I suggested only one name.

Q       What was that name?

A        Werner Thiel.

Q       And when did you suggest Werner Thiel?

A        That was on the night when I met him, the first night again, sometime in March, 1942, when I also met the defendant Kerling the first time.

Q       And why did you suggest Thiel?

A        Because I spoke to the defendant Thiel for a half an hour, and thereafter Lieutenant Kappe came over to me and said, “Listen, George, do you know this boy?”

I said, “Yes.”

He said, “What do you think of this fellow here?”

I said, “What do you mean?”

He said, “Do you think he knows America?  Do you think he would d be good for this?”

I said, “Well, do you want me to decide on that?”

He said, “Go ahead and arrange a meeting with him.”

That’s what I did.

Q       Thiel wanted to go?

          A        No.  When I met the boy the first time on Saturday night—

          Q       Do not go into that.  Did Thiel want go or didn’t he want to go?

          A        He didn’t say yes or no.

          Q       He did later say yes?

          A        Not to me.

          Q       But to Kappe?             


A        It is possible.  That I don’t know.

Q       You do not know?

A        That I don’t know. 

Q       You gave Thiel’s name to Kappe as a possible saboteur?

A        I did not do that, sir.  I would only contradict myself.

Q       I do not know what you mean.

          A        I was asked by Lieutenant Kappe to tell the boy—well, to tell him whether he was willing to help the Fatherland. 

          Q       Wait, you knew that Kappe was talking about sabotage, then, didn’t you?

A        That is correct.

          Q       And so you talked to Thiel at Kappe’s suggestion to see whether Thiel would go into sabotage?

          A        No, sir.  I could never at any time disclose to anyone the reason if this undertaking, because this was against the polices laid down by the German High Command, or whatever it is.  One does not know what the other is doing. 

          Q      I do not want what you did not do.  I want to know what you did.  You got Thiel into this?

A        I told you—

Q       Say yes or no, and then explain.

A        No, sir.

Q       Now, explain.

A        I helped to get him in.

Q       You helped to get him in?           


A        That’s correct.

          Q       When did Kappe first give you the records of the other defendants so that you could go over them and study them and see whether or not they would be good saboteurs?  When did that first happen?

A        I can’t answer that question, sir.

          Q       When did Kappe first give you records of the defendants to go over?

A        It was during the first or second week in March, 1942, sir.

Q       That was before the school started?

A        Yes.

Q       So you and Kappe were organizing the school, were you?

A        No.

          Q       Will you answer that first and then explain?  Were you and Kappe organizing the school?

A        No, sir.

Q       You were not?

A        That school was organized two years before.

Q       By whom?

A        I suppose by the German High Command.

Q       By the German High Command?

A        Yes, sir.

Q       Did Kappe tell you that?

A        He told me – first of all, he told me that there is such a thing, that there is a sabotage school. 

Q       How did you find that out?

A        Furthermore, when I cam out to that school I seen   


booklets written in Arabian or Indian language.  I said to myself, “There has been other people there.”  Further—

          Q       Well, from information you got, you thought it had been organized two years before?

          A        Not two years before; some long time.

          Q       In March Kappe gave you records of saboteurs to study?

          A        Of some of them, yes.

          Q       For what purpose?

          A        I should merely decide whether those people has sufficient knowledge of English or whether they could be used for that.

          Q       For sabotage?

          A        All right, for sabotage.

          Q       Well, say yes or no.

          A        Yes, sir, for sabotage.

          Q       Now, what names did he give you in March?

          A        Kerling-

          Q       Did you know Kerling then?

          A        Not at that time.  Kerling, Neubauer—he was in the Army then yet—two or three other names; also soldiers which were still in the Army—he could not get free from the Army.

          Q       What other names?

          A        One second.  Let me think.  It was at that time, of this group here, it was Kerling and Neubauer.  

          Q       And certain other name that did not belong to the group?

          A        Of people which were still in the Army.   


          Q       That is correct?

          A        That is right.

          Q       Did you report then back to Kappe and make your recommendation in the names submitted?

          A        I had been sitting up in the Kaukasus, which was the blind headquarters of his office.  I merely sat there and made notes. 

          Q       Well, eventually you reported back to Kappe and told him what you tough of those names?

          A        In this position I was in I had to play—

          Q       Did you or did you not?

          A        I told him yes, I thought they would be good. 

          Q       You told him of some that would be good and some you thought would not be good?

          A        No, sir.

          Q       You thought they would all be good?

          A        To me, the way the possible chance was presented—

          Q       Listen, I do not care about your chances or anything else.  I am asking you what you did with Kappe.  Did you report back and talk over with Kappe these names as possible saboteurs?  You did, didn’t you?  If you did, say so.  If you did not, say so.

          A        Talk over?  I did not talk over anything with him.  I did not, sir.

          Q       Did you make a report in the named?

          A        This I can’t recollect no more.

          Q       What?

          A        In order to understand what you mean—

          Q       Never mind.  Just think over the question and answer.


The question is, Did you make a report to him on the names of the possible saboteurs?

A        I did not make no report, written or orally. 

Q       Well.  Did you say anything to him about them?

A        No, sir.

          Q       He sent them to you to study and you did not say anything to him; is that right?

          A        That’s right.

          Q       By the way, when Thiel came over in the boat with you were his plans to live in Germany permanently?

A        This I don’t know.

Q       You do not know about that?
A        No, sir. 

          Q       Dasch, you were pretty nervous when you got to America, weren’t you?

A        Nervous?  I was happy, happy-happy and nervous.

Q       You were happy and nervous?

A        Yes, sir.

Q       I think they told you that he Gestapo had agents in the FBI?

A        Do you mind explaining that “they”?

Q       Well, did anyone in Germany tell you that?

A        No, sir. 

Q       Well, someone told you that?

A        Not on Germany.

Q       Who told you and where?

          A        This young boy Burger called me up that Sunday afternoon, or some day, when I told him who I was.

Q       So when you called up the FBI in New York City you                            


had no idea, did you, that there were any Gestapo agents down there?

          A        Where?

          Q       In the New York Office of the F.B.I.?

          A        I don’t believe in this so-called story that there are Gestapo agents here in the United States.

          Q       Well, the answer is no then?

          A        No, sir. 

          Q       Fine.  Then I have gotten an answer out of you.  No.

          A        No, sir. 

          Q       Why didn’t you go right away to the F.B.I.?  Were you nervous?

          A        I had three reason to, sir.  May I explain all three reasons?

          Q       Surely.  Do them Quickly-al three. 

          A        All right.  First of all, I was a mental and a nervous wreck.  I was so glad that I was here.  And, second of all, I has to be human, and that is mainly—had to be human. 

          Q       And third?

          A        Just one second.  Why I had to be human—I have got to explain that to the Commission.  I know why I came.  I studied every other possible one to find out a reason why they came here.  I knew this boy—what’s his name here?

          Colonel Dowell.  Burger.

          The witness.  Burger—why he came here—but I wasn’t quite sure why this little kid Haupt came here, a boy who has remained in Germany only four or five months, who had his mother here and lived here in America.  I didn’t know why he came here.  I could not at any time run to the police and at the same


time take this chance away from the kid to prove why he came here.  That would have been merely for the sake of my own self-protection.  That would have been the rottenest thing in the world.  To be a real decent person I had to wait.  I had to give every person a chance to say what I had to say.  That’s the reason.           


                    Questions by the Attorney General

          Q       You were a nervous wreak, but you were a happy nervous wreak, were you not?

          A        Sir, on the first Saturday night I landed here I sent this boy home.

          Q       If you were a nervous wreak, why did you go to the waiters’ club and play cards two nights and a day?

          A        That was the best thing I could do have done.

          Q       That was good for you?

          A        Yes, for a day and a half or two, or how many hours it was, I didn’t think of nothing else but playing cards.  When I go tout I was dead tired, and I went home and had a good sleep, and the next morning I said, “Now, let’s go to work.”

          Q       Are you a Communist?

          A        No, sir.

          Q       Were you ever a Communist

          A        No, sir.

          Q       Did you ever tell anyone that you were a Communist?

          A        Yes, I did.

          Q       Who did you tell?  Did you tell Pete you were a Communist?

          A        No, sir.

          Q       You never were a Communist?

          A        Just one second; I would like to get that straight.  You cannot ask a question to a man—“Are you a communist?”  That is impossible.

          Q       I can.

          A        It is the same way as if I would ask you, “Are you a Democrat?”  I beg your pardon, I would like to make that       


clear, please, what I mean by that.  Let us be honest.  I have tried to be honest all my life that way.  If a person wishes to see the truth, wants to know the truth, he must see the good part and the bad part, everything.  That is how you get to the truth.  So if I were asked, “Are you a Communist?”  I would say, “No; I have never been a Communist.”  As a matter of fact, fighting Communism over here was an instrumental reason why I had to leave this country.

          Q       I take it then, that you are not a Communist?

          A        I would say not.

          Q       So you are able to answer that questions, aren’t you?

          A        Yes, sir.

          Q       Are you a loyal German or a loyal American?

          A        I am loyal to the people of Germany.

          Q       How about the people of America?  Are you loyal to them too?

          A        Yes.

          Q       You are loyal to every one, aren’t you?

          A        I am loyal to all good, decent, honest, law-abiding citizens, regardless of whether they are in Germany or America or France.

          Q       Were you a slave in Germany?

          A        Yes.

          Q       I was physically a free man.  I had a very good job and good money.

          Q       Were you a free man mentally}?

          A        I dreaded becoming a slave, and that is the reason I didn’t want to become a slave like the other poor people,        2564

and that is why I had to go—not to become a slave.

          The Attorney General.  I think that is all.

          Colonel Royall.  I would like to ask the witness a few questions.


                    Questions by Colonel Royall:

          Q       Dasch, from the time you first talked with Burger after arriving in America he knew that you were planning to go to Washington and report this thing, did he not?

          A        Will you repeat that?

          Q       Just take your time, now.  I just want to ask you a few simple questions.  Do you want to rest a minute before I go into this?

          A        I would like to, yes.

          The President.  We will recess for ten minutes.

                    (An informal recess was taken, at the conclusion of which the following occurred)

          The President.  The session is open.

          Colonel Munson.  Dasch, you are reminded that you are still under oath.

          The witness.  Yes, sir.

          Colonel Ristine.  If the Commission please, there is just one question that I had intended to ask but which I omitted to ask.  May I ask it now?

          The President.  Yes.


                              Question by Colonel Ristine:

          Q       Mr. Dasch, were you at any time in 1941 or 1942 sworn in as a member of the military forces of Germany?

          A        No, sir.


          Colonel Ristine: You may inquire, Colonel Royall.


                    Questions by Colonel Royall:

          Q       Dasch, I believe you testified that over in Germany Lieutenant Kappe gave you a complete file on all or certain of these defendants, is that right?

          Q       Did that file indicate that he had made a careful investigation, from all sources, of their records, personal history and experiences.

          A        That is correct, sir.

          Q       I believe, in the case of the defendant Burger, it showed that he had been in a concentration camp in Germany for 17 months; is that right?

          A        Yes, sir.

          Q       What was the relation of the Gestapo to the concentration camps?  Do they administer them?

          A        There was a report—

          Q       I did not ask you that.  I said what did the Gestapo have to with concentration camps in Germany? 

          A        Yes sir.

          Q       Was Burger, both in Germany and after he got to this country, exceedingly nervous about the Gestapo?

          A        Yes, That Sunday morning he told me he was scared stiff because he knows, as a matter of fact, from over there, that there were agents of the Gestapo right here in the United States, and he went even as far as saying that even


right in the ranks of the FBI.  There were agents.

          Q       From the time you had your conversation with Burger in New York he knew from what you had told him that you were planning to report this plan to the F.B.I.?

          A        Yes, indeed, sir.

          Q       And you requested that he wait until you had had time to report it in your own way; is that right?

          A        That question came up a few times.

          Q       Answer it, please.

          A        Yes, sir.

          Q       You spoke of certain instructions which were given the group in Germany.  Were they instructed not to harm anybody physically?

          A        Yes, sir.

          Q       Were any instructions given to you about getting any military information and sending it back to Germany?

          A        No, sir.

          Q       Was any such instruction given any member of the group, so far as you know?

          A        No, sir.

          Q       You were instructed, I believe you said, to wait for three months before anything was done?

          A        That is correct, sir.

          Q       At first they wanted to make it one month, and you made it three?

          A        That is right, even longer, possibly.

          Q       When you arrived in New York did you tell the other boys that you were going to the New Yorker hotel, and then you went to the Governor Clinton?


          A        Quirin and Heinck asked me where I stayed; so I told them “I am staying at the Hotel New Yorker”.  That was on Sunday night, around 6:45, near Broadway.                                                  

         Q        And you were staying at the Governor Clinton at that time?

          A        Yes, sir.

          Q       You said in one of your answers, I think, that the Kaukasus was blind for something.  What did you mean by that?

          A        Yes, indeed.  The Kaukasus was on the fourth floor of an apartment house, and downstairs at the entrance to that house was little copper thing which said “Schriftlertung der Kaukasus”.

          Q       What does that mean?

          A        “Editors of the Kaukasus”.

          Q       In other words, it was assumed to be some editors of some publication; is that right?

          A        Exactly, sir.

          Q       Was there some publication there—or do you know?

          A        No.

          Q       Not on the fourth floor?

          A        No, sir.

          Q       That was Kappe’s office?

          A        No sir.  There were all together four rooms.  In one room there was a Miss Stahl; and I could never go in there not at no time could I enter.  I was never allowed.

          Q       You did not know what that was?

          A        No, sir.

          Q       What were the other rooms—offices?

          A        The rooms outside of that was a bedroom and two


living rooms, and we used one living room, the one out to the front.

          Q       Do you know whether or not Miss Stahl in her office had a newspaper or magazine?  You do not know what was in there?

          A        As far as I could look into the open door I saw a lot of files in there and office furniture.  That is about all. 

          Q       You spoke of knowing the defendant Haupt.  You looked over his file at some time, did you?

          A        I don’t believe that at that time I ever looked at Haupt’s file.  Haupt came to me while I was sitting in the Kaukasus.  Lieutenant Kappe called me from headquarters and said, “I have sent over a young boy to you”.

          Q      That is all right about that; you can tell that later if you want to, and I will have no objection.  But did you look over the file and data about Haupt?

          A        No sir.  There was no file of Haupt.

          Q       Did you talk to Haupt?

          A        Yes, indeed, sir.

          Q       Kappe knew a good deal about him, did he not?

          A        Yes; he seemed to.         


          Q       He seemed to learn the facts, as far as he could, about everybody, did he not?

          A        Oh, yes, he knew it all.

          Q       You did know, however, that Haupt had been in America most of his life?

A        That is correct, sir.                                                          

          Q       You knew he as an American citizen through his parents, or that his parents were American citizens?

          A        At that time I didn’t know that he was a citizen, no, sir.

          Q       Did you know that is parents were?

          A        This I did not know either.  The boy told me.  The boy told me so.

          Q       You did know that his parents were living in New York, from the records that they had there?

          A        In Chicago.

          Q       In Chicago, I mean.

          A        Yes, sir.

          Q       He was much the youngest boy in this group?

          A        Yes, indeed.

          Q       You knew that he had not been away from home any appreciable time except on this trip, did you not? 

          A        I knew, as a matter of fact, that he was only been in Germany from December, 1941, up until the time I met him.

          Q       I believe you stated in answer to questions either on direct or cross examination—I believe it was on cross examination by the Attorney General—that you had some doubts, or words to that effect, as to what Haupt’s real intentions were, because he did have his family back in America; is that correct?


          A        I reasoned a young boy like him, has lived in American all the time and was in an American School—that so little American boy, only been in Germany, and willing to go into such an awful undertaking, there must be some other reason, so I studied the boy as much as I could.

          I even changed table in school and during the lunch hours I used to sit with Lieutenant kappa and the so-called leaders and instructors.  I moved over to the table where Haupt, this young boy Peter Burger, and the corporal who didn’t come –

          Q       (Interposing) You have answered my question.  I think you are talking about something else now.  As I understand it, you knew Thiel on the boat?

          A        That is right, sir.

          Q       Going over?

          A        Yes.

          Q       You knew the type of boy he was, did you not?

          A        Yes, sir.

          Q       You had a chance to observe him?

          A        Yes, I spoke to him a few times, especially the day when we went into Germany on the train.  I spoke to him about a whole hour.

          Q       It was at the suggestion of Kappe that you talked to him about it?

          A        Yes.

          Q       You talked to him about it, and as a result of your talk and that of Lieutenant Kappe, he came into this plan; is that right?

          A        I didn’t quite get that.


          Q       I believe you said that you were partially or in part responsible for his coming into this?

          A        That is correct.

          Q       You had known him longer that anybody else in the group?

          A        That is correct.

          Q       You talked with him on the boat?

          A        That is right, sir.

          Q       As a result in large part of your conversation with him, he followed along and came on in; is that right?

          A        That is right.

          Q       George, when was this agreement that you would plead guilty and that after some period – six months, I believe it was – you would get a Presidential pardon?  When was that agreement made with you?

          A        On Saturday night, June 28, I think was the date, June 27th.

          Q       At that time you had already given them most of the facts about the case, had you?

          A        Yes, sir, I had been with F.B.I.  from eleven o’clock or ten-thirty in the morning from Saturday—that was the 18th, then—no we are speaking in July, not June—from Friday the 19th up until Saturday the 27th.

          Q       The 27th?

          A        That is right.

          Q       At that time they made that promise to you, therefore, they had eight days in which to talk with you and discuss the matter?

          A        Yes, indeed sir.


          Q       What exactly did they promise you?

          A        They took me downstairs into the room—

          Q       I did not ask you where they took you, I just asked you what they promised you.

          A        They said to me, “George, the best way for you—your case is to go and plead guilty”. 

          So I have told them, “To plead guilty for what?”

          “Well, you plead guilty, and you have to go in front of court, and now is your time to act.  This is the biggest act in the world.  You have to stay there and take the punishment and don’t say nothing.  Don’t say, ‘I have been to the F.B.I.’; just take it; that is all. 

          “Then you go to prison, and after six months or three months”—Mr. Traynor said it might be only three months; the others say it might be only six months—then I would receive a Presidential pardon; and to the fact—they then played up the fact of my mother and the security of my parents, and I said, “Yes, sure; for the security of my parents, I am willing to do that”, so I agreed to that.

          Colonel Royall.  That is all I want to ask.

          The Attorney General.  I have just a few questions that occur to me.


                    Questions by Attorney General:

          Q       What relation are you to Reinhold Barth?

          A       Reinhard Barth is the husband of my first cousin, Friedal Dasch.

          Q       Was he active at the camp?

          A        Reinhard Barth was just like an instructor.


          Q       How many times did you see him before you went to the sabotage school?

          A        I met Reinhold Barth the first time—

          Q       (Interposing) How many times did you see him?

          A        Well, five times, at least.

          Q       Five time?

          A        Yes, indeed.

          Q       During any of those times did you discuss sabotage with him?

          A        No, sir.  That was in August—that was in September, 1942.  He didn’t—

          Q       (Interposing) The answer is no?

          A        Yes, sir.

          Q       Barth is a good Nazi?

          A        I classify him an idealistic Nazi.

          Q       Is your brother connected with the Russian government in any way?

          A        My brother?

          Q       Yes.

          A        Very good.

          Q       Answer yes or no.

          A        No, sir.

          Q       How far off the shore was this submarine when you landed, if you can tell or if you give an estimate of it?

          A        Well, sir, that is very hard to give, because it was dark and foggy, but to my way of reasoning, until we finally go to shore, I reckon 400 yards—400 or 500 yards.  This cannot be made definite, because we had no way—

          Q       (Interposing) Four hundred or five hundred yards is your estimate?


          A        Yes.

          The Attorney General.  That is all.

          Colonel Ristine.  I have no further questions.

          Colonel Royall.  I have nothing further.

          Colonel Ristine.  Possibly the Commission would like to ask some questions.

          The President.  There seems to be none.  The witness is excused.

          The Witness.  Thank you.

          Colonel Royall.  May it please the Commission, it is only five minutes until the adjourning time agreed on, and I think it would be impractical to start with another witness now. 

          The President.  There are other witnesses?

          Colonel Royall.  Yes, sir.  It is our purpose to offer the defendant Burger.

          Colonel Ristine.  We shall have some further testimony, but it will be very short.

          The President.  We shall adjourn until Monday morning at ten o’clock.

          (At 12:25 o’clock p.m. an adjournment was taken until Monday, July 27, 1942 at 10 o’clock a.m.)