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Cover
Sheet
MILITARY
COMMISSION TO TRY PERSONS CHARGED WITH
OFFENSES
AGAINST THE LAW OF WAR AND THE
ARTICLES
OF WAR
________________
Washington,
D. C.
Volume XIII
Pages 2115 to 2292
2115
CONTENTS
|
Name of Witness |
Direct |
Cross |
Redirect |
Recross |
By Commission |
|
James Stuart Eagan |
2119 |
2120 |
|
|
|
|
Herbert Joannes
Wilhelm Godhelp Haupt |
|
2124 |
2144 2152 |
2147 2152 |
2148 2153 |
|
Agnes Jordan |
2156 |
2159 |
|
|
|
|
Anna Emma Haupt |
2171 |
2179 |
2181 |
2181 |
|
|
Gerda Wiland |
2184 |
2188 |
|
|
|
|
Herman Otto Neubauer |
2192 |
2217 |
2246 |
2247 |
|
|
Werner Edward Thiel |
2249 |
2267 |
2289 |
2292 |
2292 |
EXHIBITS
|
Prosecution |
For Identification |
In Evidence |
|
P-260 Photograph (Leiner) |
2287 |
|
|
Defendants’ |
For Identification |
In Evidence |
|
E
Report to Lieut. Pace, July 16,
1941, to Chief of Ordnance |
|
2162 |
--ooOoo--
2116
MILITARY
COMMISSION TO TRY PERSONS CHARGED WITH
OFFENSES
AGAINST THE LAW OF WAR AND THE
ARTICLES
OF WAR
________________
Washington,
D. C.
Wednesday,
July 22, 1942
The
Military Commission appointed by the President by order dated July 2, 1942,
met, in room 5235 Department of Justice, at 10 o’clock a.m., to try for
offenses against the Law of War and Articles of War, the following persons:
Ernest Peter Burger, George John Dasch, Herbert Haupt, Heinrich Harm Heinck,
Edward John Kerling, Hermann Neubauer, Richard Quirin and Werner Thiel.
PRESENT: Members of
the Military Commission, as follows:
Major
General Frank R. McCoy, President,
Major
General Walter S. Grant,
Major
General Blanton Winship,
Major
General Lorenzo D. Gasser,
Brigadier
General Guy V. Henry,
Brigadier
General John T. Lewis,
Brigadier General John T.
Kennedy.
As Trial Judge Advocates:
Honorable
Francis Biddle,
Attorney General of
the
Major General Myron Crammer,
The Judge Advocate General,
Colonel F. Granville Munson,
Officer of the Judge
Advocate General’s Department.
Oscar
Cox,
Assistant Solicitor
General of the
As
Provost General:
Brigadier
General Albert L. Cox.
2117
As Counsel for the Accused except for
George John Dasch:
Colonel
Cassius M. Dowell,
Captain William G. Hummell.
As Counsel for the Accused George John
Dasch:
Colonel
Carl L. Ristine.
- - - - -
PROCEEDINGS
The
President. The Commission is open.
Colonel
Munson. All the personnel of the
Commission are present. All the accused
and the reporter are present.
Of the
prosecution’s staff, Mr. Rowe, Colonel Weir, Colonel Treusch, and Major Thurman
are temporarily absent.
Of
the staff of the defense, Colonel Royall, and Major Stone are temporarily
absent, as well as Captain Bruton.
The
Attorney General. May it please the
Commission, Colonel Royall, as he is temporarily absent, has requested us to
withdraw this witness temporarily, and the defense will put on two other
witnesses. I have no objection to that. It suits his convenience.
Colonel
Dowell. May it please the Commission,
the defense had expected that the prosecution would continue until the
conclusion of the cross-examination of the witness Herbert Hans Haupt at this
time, followed by redirect examination, so arrangements for the defense
witnesses’ appearance have gone a little awry.
They are now being searched out, and I think a five-minute recess would
be in order.
The
President. We will take a recess for ten
minutes. Will you please notify us when
you are ready to resume?
The
Attorney General. Very well, General.
2118
(A short recess was had, after which the
following occurred:)
The President. The recess is over. Come to order, please. Proceed.
Colonel Munson. What witness, Colonel Dowell?
Colonel Dowell.
Colonel Munson. Mr. Eagan,
the Military Commission requires, in addition to the oath that is taken by the
witness, and oath to the secrecy of the proceedings, in which you will note
that you are bound not to divulge anything that happens in the courtroom that
comes to your attention, and which is designed to prevent you from discussing
the case outside the courtroom.
The Commission also instructs me to
inform you that violation of that oath of secrecy may result in contempt
proceedings or other proceedings of a criminal nature; and in taking that oath,
you so understand that to be the fact?
Mr.
Colonel Munson. Will you hold up your right hand, please? You
solemly swear that you will not divulge the proceedings taken in this trial to
anyone outside the courtroom until released from your obligation by proper
authority or required so to do by such proper authority?
Mr.
Colonel Munson. Now the oath as a witness. You swear that the evidence you shall give in
the case now on hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr.
2119
was called as a witness for
the defense and testified as follows:
Question by Colonel Munson:
Q Please state
your full name, residence, and occupation.
A James Stewart
Eagan,
Colonel Munson. Does the Commission desire to have the
Sergenat sit here at this time?
The Presidnet. No, it is not necessary, Sergeant.
Questions by Colonel Dowell:
Q Mr.
A Yes,
sir.
Q What
is your positionwith reference to the Simpsons Optical Company?
A I
am the Presidnet.
Q How
long have you been presidnet of that company?
A Since
about 1933.
Q Do
you know Herbert Hans Haupt?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Is
he in the room?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Where
is he?
A Sitting
at the table.
Q This
is he (indicating)?
2120
A Yes,
sir.
Q How
long have you known him?
A Since
he started to work for us in January, 1939.
Q When
did he leave your employ?
A June,
1941
Q Why?
A Well,
he reported to the office that he wanted to travel and thought that that was
the time for him to travel, and he wanted to go to Mexico, as I recall it.
Q Had
his work been satisfactory?
A Yes,
sir.
Q When
did you next see him?
A I
haven’t seen him at all, sir, until today.
Q Do
you know whether or not he has applied for reemployment in your company?
A Not
through the office, so sir.
Colonel Dowell. No further questions.
The Attorney General. Have you any questions, Colonel Ristine?
Colonel Ristine. No questions.
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q How long had
Haupt been with the Simpson Optical Company?
A From
Q How long had
Wergin been with the Optical Company?
A About the
same length of time.
Q And to what extent
was Haupt a skilled workman?
A Well, he
started in our trainees course in 1939 and
2121
had been trained in many of
the operations that are required in optical work.
(At this point Colonel Royall entered the
courtroom)
Q Was he of any
great value to the company be being a skilled worker?
A Well, he was
valuable to the extent that he had completed about two and a half years of
training.
Q How long is
the training?
A Well, for the
optician the training is about eight years.
Q So he had
completed about two and a half out of eight years?
A Yes.
Q Well, did you
consider his loss a very substantial loss to the company?
A Well, it
would naturally affect us when a man that had been with us that long had to
leave.
Q Did you talk
to Lieutenant Samuel C. Pace about this man on
A I don’t
recall the gentleman’s name that came over from I think it was the Ordinance
Department.
Q But you talked
to a lieutenant from the Ordinance Department?
A Yes.
Q Did you say to
him that Haupt had not learned enough about the trade to be of any substantial
value to the employer?
A I don’t
recall that, no, sir.
Q Did you say
something that was substantially that?
2122
A Well, I don’t
think so, because a man that had been with us two and a hlaf years would be of
some value, naturally.
Q Some value?
A Yes.
Q Though in the
apprentice state?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you
consider him valuable enough to have his way paid by
Colonel Dowell. I
object to the question as evidently calling for the opinion of the witness.
The Attorney General.
Well, the opinion of the witness is the value of Haupt’s services, and
it seems to me the he certainly is entitled to answer with respect to the value
of those services.
Colonel Dowell. It
is not believed, may it please the Commission, that the witness has in any way
qualified as an expert in expressing an opinion as to the needs of
The President. The
question may be answered.
The Attorney General.
Would you read the question, Mr.
Reporter, please?
The Reporter (reading).
“Would you consider him valuable enough to have his way paid by
The Witness. I don’t
know as I quite understand that.
Questions by the Attorney General
Q Let me put the
question differently. Would you pay the
expenses of a workman of this kind from
A Not with that
amount of training.
2123
Q Not with that
amount of training?
A No, it
wouldn’t be.
(At this point Major Stone entered the
courtroom.)
Q Did you say to
the Lieutenant that you could not conceive of its being worth the necessary
money for
A No, sir, not
that I recall.
Q You did not
say that in substance?
A No. The only thing that I was interested in at the
time was trying to retain all of our partially and semi-skilled men, because it
was impossible to get opticians, and they have to be trained, of course.
Q Did Haupt say
anything more to you than that?
A No, just that
he was going to travel, and I asked him where he had intentions of going, and
he mentioned
Q Did he say how
long he was going to stay in
A Not that I
recall, no.
Q Did he say
when he was coming back?
A No, he did
not.
Q Did he say
whether he was coming back?
A I don’t
recall that, either.
Q Did he say why
he was going?
A No; just to
travel, and he had heard that living conditions in
Q Did he mention
2124
A He mentioned
Q In what way
did he mention
A Well, that he
was going to go to
Q To travel?
A Yes, sir.
The Attorney General.
That is all.
Colonel Dowell. No
further questions.
The President. Are
there any questions by the Commission? There seems to be none. The witness is excused.
HERBERT JOANNES WILHELM GODHELP HAUPT
was recalled as a witness
and, having been previously duly sworn, testified further as follows:
Colonel Munson. You
are reminded, Mr. Haupt, that you are
still under oath.
The Witness. Yes,
sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION—RESUMED
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Haupt, I am
not clear what you said about this yesterday.
Did you say that at no time you had been given a German Army number?
A That is
correct, sir.
Q Well, do you
know whether or not any of the other of these defendants were given German Army
numbers?
A Not that I
know of.
Q Not that you
know of. Who suggested, if anyone, in
A That was
suggested by Walter Kappe.
2125
Q Kappe
suggested that you use your own name when you got here?
A That is
correct.
Q Did Kappe tell
you what to say with respect to where you had been if the question were asked
you when you came to
A I had one of
threee stories. He says he wasn’t sure
if I should use my own name. He says if
I did I could say that I had never left the United States, that I had been
traveling in the United States and that I did not want to get into the Army and
that’s why I went away from home; and another story, that I went to Mexico and
returned from Mexico.
Q Did he say
anything about whether you should say you had been in
A He did not.
Q Did you say to
the F.B.I. that you had been all the
time in
A I did.
Q When did you
say that?
A When I went
up to te F.B.I. office.
Q You mean the
trip with respect to your registration?
A Yes, with
respect to my registration.
Q Not at any
other time did you say that to the F.B.I.?
A No, I did
not.
Q What did you
say to the F.B.I. about being in
A When? The
first time I was up there?
Q When did you
say anything to the F.B.I. about being
2126
in
A Well, I spoke
to the F.B.I. twice, and the first time
I was up there, when I went up by myself, I told the F.B.I. I had not been in
Q So at that
time you lied to the F.B.I.; is that right?
A I did.
Q When later did
you say anything about
A I told them I
had been in
Q Did you ever
say anything to the F.B.I. about a girl
taking the explosives from
A I did.
Q When did you
tell them that?
A After I was
apprehended.
Q Why did you
tell them about a girl taking explosives from
A I told them
that Edward Kerling was going to get in touch with a girl and Edward Kerling,
this girl, and I were supposed to go down to Florida and take the explosives in
trucks—in traveling bags, and this girl was supposed to take the explosives to
New York.
Q Where was she
supposed to take them to
A From
Q Where in
A That I don’t
know.
Q Did Kerling
tell you that a girl was going to take them from
2127
A Kerling
didn’t tell me, because he himself did not know.
Q Well, did you
tell the F.B.I. that Kerling had made
those arrangements?
A I told the
F.B.I. that Kerling had made that
staement. He couldn’t have made those
arrangements.
Q Did Kerling
make that statement?
A He did.
Q When did he
make it?
A On the
U-boat.
Q What day did
he make it, if you remember? Was it the day you landed?
A A few days
after we heard the gas rationing over the radio on the U-boat.
Q What did you
hear about the gas rationing over the radio?
A I personally
only heard that the gas rationing was in effect on the eastern coast, on the
whole East Coast.
Q You didnot
hear it was in effect in
A I did not.
Q Did anyone
hear that the gas rationing was in effect in
A On the U-boat
Kerling and Neubauer heard—or told me they heard that the gas rationing was to
take effect all over the
Q Not just on the
eastern seaboard, as I think you previously stated?
Colonel Royall.
Objection to the form of the question
The President. The
witness will not answer until he hear
2128
the objection.
Colonel Royall. If
the recollection is correct, the witness has never previously stated that he
heard that it was in effect in
The Attorney General.
Well, I will withdrawl the question and simply ask him this.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q What did you
hear on the radio?
A When I
listened to the radio I heard the gas rationing was in effect only on the
coast.
Q Who was the
girl that was going to take the explosives from
A That I don’t
know.
Q Well, did
Kerling say anything about her? Was it a girl that he knew?
A Somebody he
was to get in touch with. I don’t know
who the girl was.
Q You did not
ask him?
A No. It was none of my business.
Q It was not
your business to ask him?
A No, it was
not.
Q Did he say
where she was living?
A He did not.
2129
Q Did he say
whether he knew her or not?
A I guess he
had known her. I don’t know.
Q Did he say
whether Kappe had given him this girl’s address?
A He did not.
Q You know
nothing more about the girl, then?
A I do not.
Q When you were
in
A I received
Froehling’s address in
Q I did not ask
you that. I asked you, didn’t you know it,
anyway, irrespective of whether Kappe gave it to you? You knew where Froehling,
your uncle, lived, didn’t you?
A I didn’t know
the address before I received it in
Q You knew your
uncle?
A I knew I had
an uncle, Walter Froehling, yes.
Q I am speaking
about the one in
A Yes, I know
my uncle Walter Froeling in
Q Have you ever
been to his house?
A I have been
to his house many times.
Q Didn’t you
know his address in
A The address
that I did know of my uncle was
Q When did he
change his address?
A I think he
moved about a week before I left—a week or a week and a half before I left for
Q When were you
last at your Uncle’s house in
2130
before you left for
A The night
before I left—the day before I left for
Q Where was that
house then?
A That house
was 3843
Q Where does he
live now?
A That is his
address now.
Q Well, then,
you did know before you left where he was living, didn’t you?
A I did not.
Q I do not
understand. I thought you said you had
been at his house the night before you left for
A I had been at
his house the night before I had left for
Q And forgot the
address?
A Yes, because
I had no reason for remembering the address.
Q Although you
had been at his house?
A I was at the
house only once.
Q And forgot the
address since you had been there only once; is that correct?
A In fact, I went
to the old address and I asked for my uncle, and the woman who lived in the
flat told me he lives three houses down, and I went down there and visited
him. I was only at his house once.
Q So, of course,
you did not give the address to Kappe?
2131
A I did not.
Q Was part of
the plan at the sabatoge school for you to register again? I cannot remember
what you said about that.
A The plan at
the sabatoge school was for no one to register, but to get fake
registration—real registaration cards through friends who are in the
Q I understand
you signed a contract under which your people were to be paid 250 marks; is
that right?
A I signed a
contract under which that money was to go in a bank in
Q And who was to
pay it?
A This
contract? This was paid by Walter Kappe.
Q I do not
suppose Walter Kappe paid it personally, did he?
A No, but the
contract, when we signed it, there were more signatures, more names on the
contract, and they were folded over, and we were not allowed to look at it when
we signed the contract.
Q You said
WalterKappe was to pay it. Did you mean
that?
A As fas as I
know, yes; that’s the only man that I had anything to do with.
Q Did you expect
that he was paying it out of his own pocket?
A No, he was
not. It was paid out of funds, I guess,
or an organization which we did not see, which was covered up in the contract
when we signed.
Q Walter Kappe
was in the German Army, wasn’t he?
2132
A Walter Kappe
was a lietienant in the German Army.
Q In the
Intelligence unit of the German Army?
A That I don’t
know.
Q Would you say
it was an unfair presumption that the German Army was to pay you 250 marks?
Colonel Royall.
Objection to the presumption.
The Attorney General.
I will change the form of the question.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Was it your
understanding that the German Army was to pay the money?
A As far as I
understood, yes. I wasn’t certain.
Q Were you intrusted
by Kappe to register with the draft?
A I was
not.
Q I
am referring to page 394 of Burgers statement in which he says—
Colonel
Royall. Just a minute. I would like to object, sir. It certainly is not proper to examine one
witness even about the testimony of another witness. That is an elementary principle of
cross-examination.
The
Attorney General. I do not propose to do
that.
Colonel
Royall. Furthermore, here he is
proceeding to examine him about an unsworn confession, which is an even greater
violation of the rule of ordinary cross-examination.
The
Attorney General. If Colonel Royall
would permit me to ask the question, the Commission would have a better idea on
how to rule on the question. I have not
asked it yet.
2133
Colonel
Royall. I know, but you have gone far
enough to indicate that it was not a statement signed by the witness, and you
cannot examine him about something that some other witness says. You can ask him a question, but you cannot
refer him to what some other witness said.
At least, I have never seen it done.
The
President. The Attorney General will
please pose the question as he wishes it to be answered, and then we can
consider the question.
Colonel
Royall. The reason I objected at this
stage—
The
President. I am not objecting to your
objection. We accept that. I am only asking the Attorney General to
finish the question.
Colonel
Royall. May I make my position plain on
that? The reason I was making the objection before the question was finished
was that the harm is frequently done when the question is posed, and it has the
effect of arraying one witness against another, which is never permissible, and
when the question is asked that difficultly is at once presented.
Therefore
we think that it is not permissible for the Attorney General to refer to a
statement of any other witness in examining this witness. This is elementary, as I say, on
cross-examination.
2134
The
Attorney General. May I ask the
question, Mr. President?
The
President. It is hard to say what the
question is. Mr. Reporter, will you
please read the question, so far as it was asked by the Attorney General?
The
Reporter (reading):
“Q I
am referring to page 394 of Burger’s statement in which he says--“
The President. I think that is sufficient for me to rule
that the question in that form should not be asked.
The Attorney
General. I will ask it in a different
form.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Haupt, I now refresh your recollection by
referring you to a statement in Burger’s confession in which he says—
Colonel
Royall. If the Commission please, I
think that is sufficient for me to make another objection. I do not think we are playing a game here; we
are trying people for a serious offense.
That question is clearly as violative of the
rules as was the other question. Haupt
did not make this statement. There is no
suggestion that he did. There is no
legitimate reason for referring to the statement to refresh his recollection
when he had nothing to do with making it.
There can be but one purpose, and that is to array before the Commission
a possible conflict in statements, which is improper; and it does not make much
difference how you do it; it is still improper.
The
Attorney General. May it please the
Commission, the conflict is already arrayed before the Commission. Haupt has stated, as I recollect it, that he
was not instructed to
2135
register when he came to this country. You already have this on record before
you. I am asking this witness whether or
not, refreshing his recollection with this, he still wants to go on record in
the answer that he made to the Commission.
It seems to me highly appropriate.
Colonel
Royall. May it please the Commission, in
the course of the examination one of the F.B.I. agents made a definite
statement and then the Attorney General then objected to asking him a second
time if that was his recollection or if he still wanted to make that
statement.
The
Attorney General. I think I was
overruled, was I not?
Colonel
Royall. No; you were not. Your objection was sustained.
Now
he is seeking himself to do exactly what he has consistently objected to in the
cross-examination of the F.B.I.
agents. This witness has
definitely stated on two occasions under cross-examination—we do not object to
the second inquiry about it—that he was not instructed to register in his own
name. So it ought to be left there,
unless we are going to adopt a different rule for the cross-examination of the
defense witnesses from that applied to the cross-examination of the
prosecution’s witnesses.
The
President. The objection is sustained.
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q Did you ever hear of Hedy Engermann?
A No.
Q You never heard of her?
A I never heard of Hedy Engermann.
Q It is spelled E-n-g-e-r-m-a-n-n, and the
first name
2136
is spelled H-e-d-y. You never heard of her?
A No, sir, I never heard of Engermann, of Hedy Engermann.
Q Were you given a work or fatigue uniform
of the German armed forces assigned to the German Army and told that if you
were captured under those circumstances you should be treated as prisoners of
war?
A In
Q Were you told it anywhere?
A Those uniforms, those work clothes of
the Army, were to be used on getting on the submarine, so that the French and
British agents in France would not see civilians going on a German submarine;
and the idea arose between Walter Kappe and the captain of the U-boat that if
we wore the uniforms while landing we would become military prisoners of
war.
Q That idea arose when Kappe and you and
the captain of the submarine were talking before you left, I presume?
A Kappe never talked to me about that at
all.
Q Then the idea arose between Kappe and the
captain of the submarine before starting; is that right?
A It did.
Q Did you at any time renounce your
American citizenship in
A I never did.
Q Even when you got the German passport?
A I never renounced my American
citizenship.
Q You said, I think, that you had 50
dollars when you got to
2137
A Approximately 80 dollars.
Q How long did you live on that 80 dollars?
A I had about $20 left when I went on the
Japanese ship to
Q I asked you how long you loved on the
$80.
A That was about—I will tell you exactly—a
little over a month.
Q Did anybody give you any more money?
A I received a little bit of money from
Hans Sass when we lived at the same place with him; he helped us along a little
bit.
Q How much money did you receive from him?
A About 10 dollars, 50 pesos.
Q Was it his personal money that he gave
you?
A It was.
Q When did you first find out that there
was to be a meeting in
A I never found out that there was to be a
meeting in
Q In
A I found that out from Hermann Neubauer.
Q When?
A When he came to
Q What day was that?
A It was Sunday, the 20th of
June.
Q What did he tell you about that?
A He told me that Eddie and he were going
to
Q Eddie being whom?
A Kerling—and Thiel; they were leaving for
2138
and they were going to go to
Q Were there orders that had come from
Kerling and Neubauer to you?
A There were not orders. That was a statement.
Q The statement had come from Kerling and
Neubauer to you; is that right?
A That was not a statement of anything
that Neubauer was to tell me. It was
nothing important. He just told me they were
going to come to
Q It was not important; he just happened to
repeat that to you?
A It didn’t seem important when he told
me.
Q When had Kerling told him to tell you
that?
A As far as I know, he had never told him
to tell me that.
Q When had he told Neubauer that you were
to meet on the 6th of July?
A He didn’t say I was to meet on the 6th
of July.
Q When had he told Neubauer that there was
to be a meeting on July 6?
A Some time while Neubauer was with him; I
do not know when.
Q Neubauer did not tell you when?
A No, sir; Neubauer did not tell me when.
Q I think I asked you, but I am not certain
about it. Did you say to your father
that you had a big job and that you
2139
had a secretary working for you, for the
German Government?
A I did not. I was going to tell you yesterday, but I was
stopped, about what might have given him that idea. When I was in
Q Did you say to your father that you had
been called to
A I did not.
Q Did you say to your Father that you went
through hard training on how to blow up factories, bridges, depots, etc.?
A That I did not tell him. I told him we went through a school in
Q Did you say to your father that when
close to the coast of
A I told him that one sailor rowed us to
the coast.
Q Did you say to your father that you had a
German marine cap?
A I told my father we had a German marine
artillery
2140
cap.
Q A marine military cap?
A That is what the caps were.
Q Did you say that in case you got caught you
would only be taken as a German prisoner of war? Did you say that to your
father?
A I said that. What I told my father was that it was the
idea of the captain of the U-boat, but I didn’t think if we had an army cap on
and dressed in swimming trunks you would be considered a soldier.
Q Did your father say to you in connection
with the green sipper bag, “What is in that bag?”
A He did not ask me. I told him what was in the bag.
Q What did you tell him?
A I told him there was money in the bag.
Q Did you tell him how it was kept in the
bag?
A I told him it was in a false bottom.
Q Whom did you ask to keep the bag?
A I asked my uncle Walter Froehling if I
could leave the bag at his house, and he said I could.
Q Did you say to your father that they were
to have a meeting on
A I did.
Q At that time did you say to your father
that he would give those sipper bags to the head boss, or you would give the
sipper bag to the head boss?
A I didn’t use the words, “head boss,” but
I told my
2141
father that I would give the sipper bag to the
leader of our group.
Q I will substitute the word “leader” for
the words “head boss.” Did you say to your father that the leader was to take
the bag to
A I did.
Q You did say that?
A I did.
Q Who had told you that you were to change
it into American money?
A It was American money. I had heard a statement once made by Kerling
that he knew somebody in a bank who would change the money.
Q Who was it in the bank? Did Kerling tell
you?
A No; he did not; he just told us that he
knew somebody in a bank who he knew, who would change the money into other
currency.
Q What bank was it?
A That I don’t know.
Q When did you hear that about changing the
money; at what time on your trip?
A It was some time on the U-boat; I do not
know when.
Q The banker was the president of the bank,
had you heard?
A No; I did not.
Q Did you say to your father, “This banker
is president of the bank in
2142
A I did not.
Q You did not say that to your father?
A No, sir.
Q Did Wergin say in your presence and in
the presence of your father, “If you need me I am willing to go along. Just let me know. I am not dumb; I know how to help you out”?
A Wergin said something to that effect,
but with other wording.
Q I think you said you discussed, or you
did say something about your discussion as to the method in which freezing
plants were operated?
A What sort of plants?
Q Freezing metal plants.
A Freezing metal plants? I have never heard of them.
Q I asked you whether you discussed it with
Wergin?
A I do not know what you mean by freezing
metal plants, and I have never discussed it with Mr. Wergin.
Q You never discussed it with him?
A I never did.
Q Did you discuss any sabotage with Wergin
or tell him how plants could be sabotaged, for instance?
A Not that I recall.
Q You probably would recall it, would you
not?
A I spoke mostly to Mr. Wergin about his
son. He was mostly interested in his son
and his safety.
Q I was not asking you about your
discussion with reference to his son; I was asking you whether or not you would
probably remember if you discussed with Wergin sabotaging plants.
2143
A I do not remember ever having discussed
it with Wergin.
Q Would you say positively you never discussed
that with him?
A I might have. I say, I do not remember.
Q Did you see all the other seven
defendants at the sabotage school in
A Yes; I have seen all the other seven
defendants in the sabotage school in
Q All through the three-week period, off
and on. They were all there, were they
not?
A They were all there.
The
Attorney General. That is all.
2144
Colonel
Royall. Shall I proceed?
The
President. Proceed.
REDIRECT
EXAINATION
Q Mr.
Haupt, I believe in the cross-examination yesterday and today there was
only one matter in which you contradicted yourself, and that was about the
hotel register; is that correct?
A It was.
Q You stated, I believe on your first
examination, that you did not put any street address?
A I stated I thought I put only my name
and the city where I came from.
Q You now see that you did put the address
A I did.
Q When you first testified, you did not
recall that you had put the street address there?
A I did not recall.
Q How long had you lived at
A We had lived at
Q Were you known at that address and in
that neighborhood?
A I was well known in that neighborhood
and at that address.
Q If the persons in that neighborhood or at
that address were approached, would they have known where you had moved to?
2145
A Most every one would have known.
Q I do not recall what, exactly, you said
about the uniform that was given to you when you came ashore. I did not get that, and the Attorney General
asked you something about the type of uniform—whether it was a naval uniform,
or something of that kind. What did you
say in answer to that?
A I said the uniform—they have two types
of jackets, one with naval buttons and one without naval buttons. Mine did not have naval buttons; plain
buttons; and those clothes were given to us in
Q Do you know what clothes they were or
whom they were used by?
A Workmen.
Q Mr.
Haupt, you stated in answer to a question of the Attorney General that
you did not learn until you saw Neubauer that the group was probably going to
meet on July 6; that is right, is it not?
A That is right.
Q Did you know before you got off the
submarine that there was to be some future meeting before any sabotage was
engaged in?
A I know there was to be a meeting at the
hotel—the Gibson Hotel in Cincinnati; and I knew from instructions from Kappe
that he says there was to be no sabotage form about three months, until you had
papers and everything which you got from friends over here.
Q You did not know until you saw Neubauer
that there was to be the meeting in
2146
June 6; is that correct?
A July 6.
I did not know.
Q I meant July 6; I should have said
that. You were asked by the Attorney
General a number of questions as to the identity of various persons whom you
heard discussed in Germany—that is, persons living in America—and I think in
most instances you gave the full names; but there were one or two you did not
definitely recall. One of them, I
believe, was a lawyer. Have you recalled
any further names of that kind that might be helpful to the Attorney General?
A The lawyer had two names: one was on the
passport card, and one was his right name.
I remember one name—Arwold—and he was a member
of the All American organization in
Q Not in connection with this case,
probably, but for the benefit of the Attorney General, what name was on the
passport?
A If I have time to think over it—I tried
to recall this morning. I knew one of
the names is Arwold, and I don’t know which the other
one is.
Q You do not know whether this name on the
passport was his correct name?
A I don’t know if that is the real name or
a fictitious name.
Q If you later recollect anything about
that; will you call it to my attention?
A I will.
Q Do you remember anything about the
passport? That date of it or where it might have been issued?
2147
A I never saw the passport, but I met the
man on the Gynio Maru,
going to
Q I believe the only other one I recall
that you did not remember is Arwold. You did not ever know his name?
A I never knew his name.
Colonel
Royall. I think that is all.
The
President. The Attorney General?
RECROSS
EXAMINATION
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q I am not clear about just when you lived
where in
A I believe we lived for three years, from
1936 to 1939, at
Q 3655?
A 3655 North Whipple.
Q That was the second address.
A And when my folks came back, I believe
we went to live out in Glencoe.
Q In Glencoe?
A Glencoe,
Q At what address?
A That I don’t remember; it was on
Q How do you spell it?
A H-o-f-f-e-l-d-e-r
Road.
Q Do you remember what block number it was
in?
2148
A I don’t remember; there were only four
or five houses on the road.
Q Where else did you live?
A My folks were working out there in
Glencoe, and they lost their job, and we moved in with some friends in
Q
A At Bartler’s—Carl
Bartler.
Q What street?
A I don’t know or recall the number of the
street.
Q When was that?
A That was just prior to the time we moved
to
Q When did you move to move to
A A few months before I left for
The
Attorney General. That is all, Mr.
President.
The
President. Are there any questions by
the Commission?
EXAMINATION
BY THE COMMISSION
Questions
by the President:
Q You stated that in connection with
Kappe’s activities you signed a contract which promised, on the one hand, that
a certain sum of money would be placed in a bank or paid to your family each
month. The question of the Commission
is: What was the consideration for which this money was to be paid? In other
words, what did you contract to do in return for the payment of this money?
A Contracted? We had contracted to do
nothing. We had not taken an oath. It was their trust. They had put trust in us to come over to the
2149
They figured—First, they were not going to
make a contract. They were going to
promise you a sum, 20 to 30 thousand marks, after the war was over; and, as far
as I know, some of the men were married and have children, and they figured
they could buy their heart and soul easier by promising money, telling them
they were going to put money in the bank or give it to their family before they
left; and this contract was drawn up only in case Walter Kappe, who was a
lieutenant in the infantry uniform, as far I as can recall, might be shipped
from his present job out to the Russian front and might get killed, and these
officers might all be pushed around in different places, and they will forget
about you, and this contract is there so in case you come back to Germany, you
can always refer that you were in the United State, and if you show what you
had accomplished in the United States, that money should be turned over to you.
Q That was in the contract, was it?
A It was not in the contract that these
officers might be shipped to different places, but that was the purpose of the
contract.
Q Was that explained to you?
A That is what they have told me, yes.
Q Did they read the contract to you to that
affect?
A No, they called us into a room one at a
time, because the contracts varied, and they asked us to read the contract, and
if we were satisfied with the contract; and if we were not satisfied, I do not
know what they would have done—if they would have raised the amount of money or
not—but in the contract it stated that the V man—V is for trust—
2150
vertrauen—the
man in trust—so and so—going to the United States will have the amount, this
certain amount of money, put on this bank or sent to his relatives, whichever
he wants, every month; and at the return of his—at his return to Germany, he
will receive a job, which there are lines you leave open. You can mark in there whatever you want; and
then they had some signatures at the bottom.
The contracts were already signed by other men whose signatures we were
not allowed to see, and then we affixed our signatures upon the contract.
Q What did you indicate you would like to
serve as on your return to
A I indicated I wanted to work as an
optician.
Q Did you do this of your own free will?
A Yes and no. The question was put to me this way: The
second time I came up to Walter Kappe’s office—it was not his office, as far as
I know; it was the editors of the Kaukasus—that was the plate outside the
door—he stated to me that I could never amount to anything in Germany, and they
were always bothering me. He says if I
noticed I couldn’t get work in Germany, and my mother’s brother, Otto
Froehling, who was a barber, had been put in concentration camp for something
he said in the barber shop, or other, and that my father’s brother, his name is
Erich Haupt—had been in concentration camp and was left out the time my mother
was in Germany. My mother knew he was in
concentration camp, and my mother tried to talk to him why, and he would never
answer; he would never open his mouth.
And my other relatives are not members of the Party, so
2151
everything was against me in
Q I understand, then, that you signed this
contract when you first went to the office of the publication?
A No, sir; this contract was signed after
the schooling and a few days before we left for
Q What was the contract you had reference
to that you signed when you went to the office of the publication?
A Oh, that was—The first time I went to
the office, I did not sign anything; I told the story of my voyage; and the
second time I was called to the office, I signed a paper of secrecy, that I
would not divulge any of this to my relatives in Germany, or anybody, under
punishment.
Q Did you read that agreement that you
signed?
A I did.
Q Were you put under oath when you signed
it?
A No, I was just given this form, and
he—first he paid me a hundred marks, and I had to sign a receipt for the
hundred marks. The he gave me another
paper which was secrecy for whatever he had told me there—whatever he had
said. I promised not to say a word to
any of my relatives or anybody—not the police, Gestapo, or anybody—as long as I
lived.
The
President. Are there any other questions
by the members of the Commission? There seems to be none.
Colonel
Royall. Would I be permitted to ask one
or two additional questions in connection with a matter about which he was
questioned by the Commission?
2152
The
President. Yes.
FURTHER
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
Questions
by Colonel Royall:
Q Herbert, at the time you signed the
contract did you intend to come to
A I never intended to commit
sabotage. I intended to come to
Q Was it necessary for you to sign a
contract in order to get to
A It was necessary to sign the contract.
Colonel
Royall. That is all.
The
Attorney General. May I also be
permitted to ask a few more questions?
The
President. Yes.
FURTHER
RECROSS EXAMINATION
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q Did the second contract you signed—not
the one you signed about the secrecy—bind you to do the best you could for the
Fatherland?
A It was not a binding contract because
they could never keep check on you—what you were doing.
Q I did not mean your conclusion, but did
the contract have a phrase stating that you would do the best you could for the
Fatherland?
A The only phrase the contract had was to
contract stated you were a V man, and V means vertrauen,
a man in trust for
Q Would you answer the question?
A That is all that it had in the contract.
2153
Q It did not say anything about doing your
best for the Fatherland?
A It did not.
Q When was your mother’s brother in the
concentration camp?
A My mother’s brother was in the
concentration camp at the time I was out in
Q When was he first put in a concentration
camp?
A I guess—I cannot answer that exactly.
Q Did you know how long he had been there
when you got to
A A short time, but he is in for quite a
long time.
Q When did he get out?
A He is not out.
The
Attorney General. That is all.
EXAMINATION
BY THE COMMISSION
Questions
by the President:
Q A question by the Commission. What do you believe would have happened to
you if you told lieutenant Kappe you would not come to
A In the position that I was, not being a
German citizen and having trouble with German officials—Well, I can’t
definitely state what would happen to me.
I would have probably went to a concentration camp—that is about all
they could have done to me.
Q Did they not ever state what they would
do to you under such conditions?
A No, but Kappe had stated that they would
pick up my
2154
friend, who was an American citizen, who was 19
years of age, Wolfgang Wergen, if I did not
cooperate.
Q Did he not say anything about what he
would do to your family?
A No; that is taken for granted after you
have been in
Q Why did he specialize so on your friend?
A Because I had traveled with my friend
from the
Q He seemed well informed on all the
conditions with regard to both your families, did he?
A When you reenter
Q Did he show you the one you had signed?
The questionnaire you had signed?
A He did not.
Q Do you remember the questions you
answered on that questionnaire? I suppose that was what you had reference to at
A At
Q Yes.
Do you remember the questions that were put
2155
to you there and which you signed at the time?
A I remember most of the questions. What was your name, age, description, and how
much money you have—how much foreign currency and how much German money—how
much clothing you were bringing into Germany, how many relatives you have and
where they are located in Germany; and they ask you if you have—one question
is, If you haven’t any relatives in Germany, would you be willing go into a
certain home, and what destinations you have , and what you want to do in
Germany, and of you were a member of the Party, and if you were not, your
citizenship; and that is about all.
Q What did you say in answering about your
citizenship?
A American. That is why I didn’t get work—a job—in
The
President. There seems to be no further
questions on the part of the Commission.
The
Attorney General. That is all.
Colonel
Royall. That is all.
2156
Lieutenant
Page. Mrs. Jordan, a witness for the
defense. Miss. Hall has been sworn. Mrs.
Colonel
Munson. Mrs. Jordan, the Military Commission
before which you are now appearing requires each person so appearing to take an
oath of secrecy as to these proceedings, that you will not divulge outside the
courtroom anything that you hear in the courtroom; and it directs me to inform
each witness who appears before the Commission that violation of that oath may
result in punishment by contempt proceedings or by some form of criminal
proceedings. I taking that oath,
therefore, you will understand that as a fact?
Mrs. ordan. Yes.
Colonel
Munson. Will you hold up your right
hand? Do you solemnly swear that you will not divulge the proceedings taken in
this trial to anyone outside the courtroom until released from your obligation
by proper authority or required so to do by such proper authority, so help you
God?
Mrs.
Colonel
Munson. Now take the oath as a
witness. You swear that the evidence you
shall give in the case now on hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.
AGNES
JORDAN
was called as witness for the defense and
testified as follows:
Questions
by Colonel Munson:
Q What is your full name?
2157
A Agnes Jordan.
Q What is your residence?
A
Q Are you employed or are you a housewife?
A Housewife.
DIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions
by Colonel Dowell:
Q Mrs.
A I guess about thirty years, thirty-five
years.
Q Remember you are speaking to the
Commission. I will ask you the
questions, and you speak to the Commission.
Do you remember Herbert Haupt?
A Yes, I know him.
Q Is he in the room?
A Oh, there he is (indicating).
Q You know him. Do you know the Haupt family, his father and
mother?
A Well, I met the mother about three times
and the father I met maybe a few more, maybe about five times, I guess.
Q You have been living there continuously
for thirty years, you say?
A Well, no, we have lived in
Q Were you living there in 1941?
A Yes, sir, I was.
Q Do you remember when you last saw Herbert
Hans Haupt in 1941?
A It was about in April, I think—in April
or May. I think it was April.
2158
Q In April or May, you think?
A Yes, I believe it was April, though.
Q Did you have a conversation with him?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Please state what that was.
A Well, I met him on the street. He asked me what I heard from
Q Who was
A That’s my son.
Q How many sons you have?
A Two.
Q Where are they?
A Well,
Q
What is the other’s name?
A William.
Q Were they friendly with Herbert Haupt?
A Well,
Q
A Yes.
Q What did you call
A Well, they called him Larry for short.
Q Larry Jordan?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was that the last time you saw Herbert
Haupt in 1941?
A No.
He called to my place three weeks yesterday, I believe.
2159
Q That was in 1942?
A Oh, yes.
Q Was that the next time you saw him, when
he called at your place?
A That was the next time.
Q And why did he call there? What happened
when he called there?
A Well, he called and wanted to know what
I heard from
Q Let us go to the time you saw him last in
1941. What did he tell you he was going
to do?
A Oh, he told me then he was going to
Q Did he tell you anything further than
that?
A No.
Q Why he was going?
A No.
Colonel
Dowell. No further questions.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions
by the Attorney General:
Q When did you see him in 1942, Mrs.
Jordan?
A I believe it was three weeks ago today.
Q Where did you see him? Did he come to see
you?
A Yes, he came to my house.
Q What did he tell you besides the fact
that he had come back from
A Well, he says he had been down to the
draft board and registered.
2160
Q Did you ask him if he had been anywhere
else except
A No, I didn’t ask him any questions, just
what he told me. He inquired mostly
about my boy.
Q Did he tell you why he had been down to
the draft board?
A No, he didn’t. He said he went down to register and
everything was all right now.
Q Did he say anything about the F.B.I.?
A Well, I don’t remember that he did.
Q You do not think he mentioned the F.B.I.?
A Well, now, he may, but I really don’t
remember that he did.
Q If he did, in what connection would he
have mentioned it, do you think?
A Well, I took it to be that he said he
went down to the draft board and he registered now and everything is now all
right.
Q He did not say anything about going over
to the F.B.I.?
A Well, I don’t remember that he did, now.
Q Was anybody else there?
A Yes, my husband was there.
Q How long did the talk last, about? And
how long was he there?
A Well, about ten minutes, I guess.
Q Did he say he had been to
A No, he did not tell me that.
Q He did not say he had been to
2161
A No, he did not. He just told me he had been to
The
Attorney General. That is all.
Colonel
Royall. That is all.
The
President. The witness may be
excused. I would like to consult both
sides as to a recess. I do not know how
it affects your personnel, but do you think you should have a recess?
(After
and informal conference, the following occurred:)
The
President. We will recess for ten
minutes.
(A
short recess was taken, after which the following occurred:)
2162
The
President. The Commission is open. Proceed, please.
Colonel
Royall. May it please the Commission, we
desire to offer in evidence a confidential report, certified to be a true copy,
signed by D. Armstrong, Colonel,
Ordnance Department, Executive Officer, referring to a report received from
First Lieutenant Samuel C. Pace, Assistant Intelligence Officer. Our information is that Lieutenant Pace, who
I think is now a captain, is confined in a hospital and not available as a
witness. We offer in evidence this
letter from Colonel Armstrong relative to the report of Captain Pace.
The
President. If there is no objection on
the part of the prosecution, it will be admitted in evidence.
The
Attorney General. No objection.
(Report
submitted by Lieutenant Pace,
dated
together with
accompanying papers, was marked
Defense Exhibit E and
received in evidence.)
The
President. Do I understand that you are going
to read this letter?
Colonel
Royall. I would like to do so, sir.
The
President. Proceed.
(DEFENSE
EXHIBIT E)
“CONFIDENTIAL”
WAR
DEPARTMENT
OFFICE
OF THE CHIEF OF ORDNANCE
“
“MEMORANDUM FOR Captain
Hummell
Department
of Justice
“Subject: Report
submitted by Lt. Samuel C. Pace, Asst.
I. O., on Mr. Wolfgang Wergen and Mr. Herbert Haupt.
2163
“1.
In accordance with you request, there is transmitted herewith a copy of
your report received this date from the Chicago Ordnance District, same subject
as above.
“For
the Chief of Ordnance:
“
Lt. Col., Ord.
Dept.
Executive Assistant
“2. incls.
Ltr-Chic. Ord. Dist.
Report, same as subject
as above.”
“CONFIDENTIAL
WAR
DEPARTMENT
CHICAGO
ORDNANCE DISTRICT
“
“Subject: Report submitted by Lt. Samuel C. Pace,
Asst. I.
O. on Mr. Wolfgang Wergen and Mr. Herbert Haupt.
“To Chief of
Ordnance
War
Department
ATTN: SPOGS – Lt. Col. L. A. Codd
“1. Attached is a true copy
of a Confidential letter from General Armstrong, subject same as above, which
was dispatched on
“2. Captain W. B. Hummell
telephoned his office today to ask for information on a visit by an officer of
this District to the Simpson Optical Company in June 1941.
“3. Captain Hummell was
advised that report was made to the Chief of Ordnance Department on June 16,
1941; that a true copy of such report would be sent today to the
2164
Chief
of Ordnance.
“For
the District Chief:
“Wm.
J. ather
Lt.
Col., Ord. Dept.
Assistant.”
“CONFIDENTIAL
WAR
DEPARTMENT
CHICAGO
ORDNANCE DISTRICT
“
“Subject: Report submitted by Lt. Samuel C.
Pace, Asst. I.O., on Mr. Wolfgang Wergen and
Mr. Herbert Haupt.
“To Chief of Ordnance
War Department
“ATTN: Public
Relations Division.
“1.
The following report, dated
“’Today I went to the plant of Simpson
Optical Company at 3208 West Carroll Street, Chicago, where I interviewed Mr.
Wolfgang Wergen and Mr. Herbert Haupt, workmen in the
factory, in the presence of Mr. J. Stewart Lagen,
President. I also spoke to Mr. Eagen separately.
“Wergen and Haupt are leaving their
jobs June 14th to start soon thereafter by auto to
2165
to
be in
“’They state, and this is verified by
Mr. Eagen, that there is no precision optical work to
be obtained in any of the Central American countries, north of Montevideo,
Uruguay, and they did not express any certainty as to whether they would go there.
“’Mr. Eagen
said privately that Wergen and Haupt
had not learned enough of the trade to be of any substantial value to an
employer. Wergen
has had experience only in blocking optical flats. Haupt has done this; he also has done some
grinding and polishing.
“’Their departure is considered by Mr.
Eagen to be of no great loss because of their being
still on the apprentice stage, each of them being employed for about a year and
one-half and each making about forty-five cents an hour.
“’Mr. Eagen
said specifically in answer to my question, that he could not conceive of its
being worth the necessary money for Germany to arrange for the transportation
of these young men for Chicago or Central America to Germany. Therefore, assuming Mr. Eagan’s opinion to be
competent, it seems there is no possibility of any plan to transport Haupt or Wergen to that country because of their skill in the
trade. For obvious reason, it
2166
seems
unlikely they would be transported for their use as soldiers.
“’The principal purpose of the
conversation was to try to induce the boys to remain on the job for at least a
few more months, and to try to reach conclusion as to whether they might have
been induced by an enemy of the United States, with or without their knowing
the fact, to quit their jobs and thereby embarrass to some extent the defense
activities of the of the Simpson Company.
Simpson has no prime contracts with the Government, but they are making
items which go into the Norden Bomb sight and other
defense materials made by such companies as Bell Howell, Minneapolis Honey_well Company, David White and Keufel
& Baser for various agencies of both the Army and the Navy.
“’The boys said they would go ahead
with their plans. It is the opinion of
Mr. Eagen that this is primarily a case of youthful
wanderlust, I can see no definite reason to disagree.
“’Both Wergen
and Haupt were born in
“’Wergen was
born
2167
They
state that if they are in a foreign country on registration day they are not
even obliged to register for the draft, according to the law, unless the
“’It is recommended, also, that this
information by conveyed to the Chief of Ordnance, Industrial Service –
Production, with the thought that the agencies of the Government established to
deal with labor, take steps to make it difficult or impossible for persons
engaged in defense industries to leave the United States.’
“For the District Chief:
“D. Armstrong
Colonel. Ord. Dept.,
Executive
Officer.
“cc-A.C.
of S. C-2 – Nq. 6th
Industrial Service – Production
“’A True Copy’
“Wm. J. Mather
Lt. Col. Ord. Dept.
Assistant.”
Now, may it please the Commission, in
view of the testimony of the defendant Haupt himself, and of Mr. Eagan and
Mrs.
2168
desire to examine
them, we will proceed with one of the other defendants.
The President. Have you any intention that you care to express
at this time, Mr. Attorney General?
The Attorney General. No, except to say that we do not desire to
call them. We have put in our case, and
we would like very much to send them back, unless there is some reason for the
Commission desiring to talk to them. If
so, we should prefer to have the Commission talk to them now. We do not think they ought to stay around
The President. There seems to be no desire on the part of
the Commission to question them.
Colonel Royall. I do not think it is at all probable that
well need them. There is a bare
possibility, if something develops in the Haupt case. In that event we will take our chances of
getting them back here. We do not desire
to retain them here on account of that bare possibility.
The same situation applies to the
witness Walter Froehling, who is also here, and we have no desire to retain him
here further unless the Commission or the prosecution desire to question
him.
The Attorney General. We do not desire to question him, and we
would like to have him returned, unless the Commission wishes to question
him.
The President. I do not think the Commission desires to
question him.
The Attorney General. Shall we send him back?
The President. Yes.
Colonel Royall. May it please the Commission, the defendant
Herbert Haupt, having expressed to his counsel the
2169
desire to have his
mother examined as a witness, in deference to his feelings we desire to change
our minds, Colonel Dowell and I, and offer her as a witness.
The President. The Commission feels that possibly the others
should be retained here, then, in view of what might develop as a result of
this witness being retained.
Colonel Royall. That certainly would seem to me to be a
reasonable mode of procedure, and if the Commission desires it, it would be
followed anyhow. We have no objections
to that.
The Attorney General. We have so directed.
2170
(At this time Colonel
Treusch entered the hearing room.)
(Mrs. Anna Emma Haupt
entered the hearing room.)
Colonel Munson. Mrs. Haupt, the Military Commission before
which you are now appearing requires that an oath of secrecy as to these
proceedings be taken, so that no witness who is in the courtroom may divulge
anything that is said in the courtroom after leaving the courtroom or may not
discuss with anyone else the proceedings that are had.
The Commission directs me to inform
every witness so appearing that violation of that oath may result in contempt
proceedings or other proceedings of a certain nature. In taking the oath, therefore, you understand
that to be the fact?
Mrs. Haupt. Yes, sir.
Colonel Munson. Hold up your right hand, please. Do you solemnly swear that you will not
divulge the proceedings taken in this trial to anyone outside the courtroom
until released from your obligation by proper authority or required to do by
such proper authority, so help you God?
Mrs. Haupt. I do.
Colonel Munson. Then, the oath as a witness: Do you swear
that the evidence you shall give in the case now on hearing shall be the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Haupt. I do.
Colonel Munson. In talking, remember that you have to talk so
that the Commission can hear you and the defendants in the room can hear
you. Talk loud; do not be afraid.
2171
ANNA
EMMA HAUPT
was called as a
witness for the defense and testified as follows:
Questions by Colonel Munson:
Q What
is your full name and residence?
A Anna
Emma Haupt.
Q Where
do you live?
A In
Q You
are the mother of Herbert Haupt?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Who
is present in the courtroom?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Where
is he?
A (The
witness indicated.)
Q Did
you give your street address in
A
Q Herbert
Haupt, sitting beside counsel, is your son?
A Yes,
sir.
DIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Dowell:
Q Mrs. Haupt, how long have you lived at your
present address in
A The
address we are living at right now?
Q Yes.
A It
has been a year in May.
Q Where
did you live before that? Do you remember the address of the house where you
lived before that?
A Before
I came to—
Q (Interposing)
You lived in
2172
you not?
A Yes,
sir.
Q What
was the address of the house from which you moved to the present address?
Q Do
you remember the number?
A I
don’t recall the number.
Q When
did you last see your son in 1941?
A In
the beginning of June.
Q June
of 1941?
A Yes,
sir.
Q When
was the next time you saw him?
A On
June 19, I believe it was—June 19, 1942.
Q June
19, 1942?
A Yes.
Q Mrs.
Haupt, I wish you would tell the members of the Commission—they are seated up
here; speak so that they can hear you and so that we can hear you back here—the
circumstances surrounding the departure of your son and his return. Tell exactly as they happened.
A I
will.
Q Will
you tell in your own way, please?
A It
was last year in May. I was sick in the
hospital, and my son came to visit me, and he told me that he was planning to
go on a vacation, and I asked him why he wanted to go an a vacation. Well, he said he never had been any place,
never had any vacation, so he was planning to see
2173
vacation; and after he
had been gone two days, his girl friend came to my house and told me that she
was an expectant mother and Herbert was the father, and she asked where Herbie
was, and I told her that Herbert left for a vacation and that I received a card
from St. Louis, I believe it was , or
Then I got a letter from my boy that
he was in
Then I received another card from him
from
Then I had a cable from
I had a telephone call from my
brother. He called me up, and he said I
should come down to his house, that his wife was ill. I believed that his wife was very ill and
took a cab and went over there. When I
came there, I seen—they prepared me that my son was here. I was nearly paralyzed seeing him, and still
I was happy to see him.
Q Mrs.
Haupt, how many times did you receive communications from your son while he was
in
A Two
letters and a cable.
Q Do
you mean a telegram?
A Yes,
sir.
Q What
was the occasion for the telegram?
A He
just sent me birthday greetings.
Q What
date was that?
A The
29th of June.
2174
Q That
was the 29th of June, 1941?
A Yes,
sir.
Q What
were the things he told you about in his letter? I think you said he told you
about how beautiful
A Yes,
sir.
Q Anything
else?
A How
beautiful it was and what he was seeing there and the mountains, and
everything, you know.
Q Did
he tell you what he was doing there?
A Yes. He wanted to see if he could get work in
Q What
did he say about that?
A He
just said he liked it there; if he could get work, he could work.
Q You
never knew whether or not he got work; is that it?
A No,
I didn’t get any more letters.
Q Did
your son tell you where he was going when he left or before he left?
A Yes.
Q He
said what?
A He
mentioned
Q Do
you know of your own knowledge whether or not he had made arrangements to get a
passport to any of those places before he left?
A Yes,
sir. He went down to the passport, and
my husband had to go with him, and he applied for a passport, and
2175
they said they would
notify him in a few days, and he didn’t get the passport, so he went down there
again, and then they told him that there was no such law that he needed a
passport to go to
Q Did
you hear anything further about the passport after he left?
A Yes,
sir. I received a letter about four or five
weeks later, and they said in the letter that they were not giving Herbie a
passport and that they were sending the money back. He had paid $10 for the passport, and they
were sending $9 back, and I received the check for 69.
Q They
sent you a check for 69?
A Yes,
sir. I signed for it. It was registered mail.
Q Now
let us go to the time when he came back in 1942. Did he tell you where he had been?
A Well,
when I seen him, he told me he has been in
Q Did
you find out that he had been to other places?
A Later
on.
Q How
did you find it out?
A Well,
it was hard to believe, because he hasn’t written to us from
Q Did
you hear him tell your husband where he had been, what he had done, and how he
had returned to the
A Yes. He says he didn’t know how to get back to the
Q Do
you know that your son went and registered for the draft?
2178
Q Then
you went where?
A From
Q And
from Ainsley—
A (Interposing)
From Ainsley—
Q (Continuing)
–to where you live now?
A Where
we are living now.
Q How
long did you live at your apartment at
A Two
years.
Q Exactly
or more or less?
A Exactly
two years.
Colonel Royall. May I ask one or two questions?
2179
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Mrs.
Haupt, what does your family consist of? Your husband, yourself, and Herbert?
A Yes,
sir.
Colonel Royall. That is all.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Mrs. Haupt, how long were you at
A From
May to October.
Q What
year was that?
A 1939.
Q And
then you went to
A Yes,
sir.
Q How
long were you there?
A I
believe six months.
Q And
then you moved to the last address, 2234
A Yes;
that is in
Q Where
did Mr. Froehling live?
A At
Q He
is living there now?
A Well,
he moved two houses further up, so I don’t recall his address, but in the same
block.
Q When
did he move?
A It
has been a year in May.
Q He
has been there a year last May, and before that he was at 3655 Whipple?
A Yes.
Q How
long was he at 3655 Whipple?
2180
A Oh,
I believe three years.
Q Three
Years?
A Something
like that.
Q Did
Herbert used to go over a good deal with his uncle?
A Yes. He was very fond of my brother.
Q Was
he at 3655 at the time?
A Yes.
Q Had
your brother moved before Herbert left, do you remember?
A Yes.
Q What
is the name of Herbie’s girl friend?
A I
used to know. I found out her last name
through the paper. Her maiden name is Stuckmann.
Q What
is her first name?
A Gerda.
Q And
she came to you two or three days after Herbert left?
A Two
days after Herbert had left.
Q And
asked where he was?
A Yes.
Q Did
she say when she had seen him last?
A Well,
she said they had been together a week ago.
Q A
week ago?
A Yes.
Q Did
she know whether he had left or not?
A Well,
he said to her he was going on a vacation.
Q She
did not know where he was going?
A No.
2181
Q And
asked you if you knew where he was going?
A Yes.
Q Did
Herb tell you how he got back from
A He
didn’t tell me much about it.
Q Did
he tell you how he got back?
A I
asked him. I says, “I can’t make out,
Herbie, how you got back,” and he said, “on a ship.”
Q On
a ship. He did not say what kind of
ship?
A No.
Q Did
he tell your husband?
A I
don’t know.
Q You
did not hear him tell your husband?
A No.
The Attorney General. That is all.
REDIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney
General:
Q Do
you remember how long before Herbie had left he moved in?
A In
May, I believe; May the 1st.
Q Well,
about how long before Herbie left was that?
A A
month.
Q About a month?
2182
A A month
before Herbie left. He moved there a
month before.
The Attorney General.
That is all.
The President. The
witness will be excused.
We expect to recess, at the request of the defense counsel,
promptly at 12:30, so be guided by that please.
We
now have about five minutes. If you are
considering another witness at this time, I think we had better adjourn now.
Colonel
Royall. I would think so; and, may it
please the Commission, iv view of the one question asked this witness, we are
now going to offer Miss Stuckmann. The Commission was correct in thinking that
this might lead into offering another witness.
The
President. We will take a recess until
1:30.
(At 12:25 o’clock p.m., a recess was
taken until 1:30 o’clock p.m. of the same day.)
2183
AFTER RECESS
(The Commission reconvened at 1:45
o’clock p.m., at the expiration of the recess.)
The
President. The recess is over. The Commission will open.
Colonel
Munson. The full personnel of the
Commission, the eight accused, and the reporter are present.
The
staff of the prosecution is present except Colonel Weir, Mr. Cox, and Mr. Rowe.
The
staff of the defense is present except Major Stone and Captain Bruton.
Colonel
Royall. May it please the Commission,
did it appear in the record this morning as to the time I entered the
courtroom?
Colonel
Munson. It was so noted that you cam in
at the time they started the cross-examination.
(Mrs. Gerda Nelind
stepped forward.)
Colonel
Munson. What is your full name?
Mrs.
Melind. Mrs. Gerda Melind.
Colonel
Munson. Mrs. Melind, the Military
Commission before which you are appearing as a witness now instructs me to
inform each witness that an oath of secrecy must be taken and that violation of
that oath may result in proceedings in the nature of contempt or other criminal
proceedings.
Before
I administer the oath, I want to know that you understand that thoroughly. You so understand?
Mrs.
Melind. Yes.
Colonel
Munson. Will you hold up your right
hand? You solemnly swear that you will
not divulge proceedings
2184
taken in this trial to anyone outside the
courtroom until released from your obligation by proper authority or required
so to do by such proper authority, so help you God?
Mrs.
Melind. I do.
Colonel
Munson. Then, an oath as a witness. You swear that the evidence you shall give
now on hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mrs. Melind. I do.
GERDA MELIND
was called as a witness for
the defense and testified as a follows:
Questions by Colonel Munson:
Q Just sit down. Please state to the reporter your full name,
residence and occupation, if any.
A Mrs. Gerda Melind.
Q And your residence?
A
Q Have you any occupation?
A Beauty operator.
Q Do you know the accused Herbert Haupt?
A Yes, I do.
Q Is that he sitting to the left of his
counsel at the table?
A The one who just stood, yes.
DIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Dowell:
Q There is no “e” on the end of your last
name?
A No.
Q M-e-l-i-n-d?
2185
A M-e-l-i-n-d.
Q Did you know Herbert Haupt in 1941?
A Yes, I did.
Q When was the last time you saw him in
that year?
A That was in June of 1941. I don’t know the exact date. I think it was the second week in June.
Q How long had you known him before that?
A About two and a half years.
Q When did you acquire the name of Melind?
A When I was married to Herbert Melind.
Q When was that?
A Well that was five years ago this July 3rd.
Q Was that before you knew Herbert Haupt?
A Yes.
Q And were you going by the name of Mrs.
Melind when you met Herbert Haupt?
A No, I was not; by my maiden name.
Q And your maiden name is what?
A Stuckmann.
Q Stuckmann?
A Yes.
Q Your first name?
A Gerda.
Q You have a middle name?
A Ann.
Q Ann?
A Yes.
Q Or Anna?
A Well, it is Anna.
2186
Q Anna?
A Yes.
Q Did you know Herbert Haupt very well at
the time that he left in 1941?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you know that he was going away?
A I didn’t know for sure. He mentioned it on several occasions.
Q Just tell the Commission more about the
occasions when he mentioned that fact.
A Well, He mentioned it about three or
four months before he left—he had plans on going to Mexico—and then he would mention
it one week, and next week he would say he wasn’t going; and then the last
evening before he left that I saw him he told me that he wasn’t leaving, that
he would call me on Wednesday, but I didn’t receive the call. I received a card from
Q How did he come to tell you that last
evening that he was not leaving? What
was you conversation that caused him to say that?
A Well, at the time I was expecting a
baby, and he told me he would not desert me.
Q You were concerned about that?
A Yes, I was.
Q you say you got a card from him from
A That’s right.
Q How soon was that after he left?
A About three days, I believe
2187
Q What was it he said on the card?
A He said that he was on his way to
Q Did you hear from him any more while he
was away?
A I didn’t receive any mail from him.
Q When did you next see him?
A That Tuesday when his mother told me he
was back.
Q Tuesday when?
A That was right after he came back. I don’t know the date.
Q What year was it?
A 1942
Q How long ago was it?
A Just a week before the 4th of
July.
Q A week before the 4th of July?
A Yes.
Q You saw him again?
A I saw him that Tuesday evening.
Q Let me ask you this. Before Herbert Haupt went away in 1941 were
you and he engaged?
A Well, we spoke of marriage, yes.
Q Now, you said it was about a week before
the 4th of July in 1942 that he came back?
A I believe it was, yes.
Q He saw you again?
A Yes.
Q Did you speak of marriage again?
A Yes.
He proposed to me.
Q Did you accept him?
2188
A I did not accept the marriage
proposal. I agreed to have a blood test
taken, and I wanted to bide for time. I
wanted to talk to him a little more about where he had been.
Q He had not told you where he had been?
A No.
He just said he had been in
Q Did he tell you at any time where he had
been?
A Except that he had been in
Q Did you ask him?
A I asked him where he had been, yes.
Q What was your object in taking a blood
test?
A Well, he ha proposed and offered to
marry me, and I couldn’t understand why he wanted to marry me all of a sudden,
after not hearing from him a whole year, so I thought, well, I would agree to
have that taken, and maybe by that time he would tell me a little more why he
wanted to marry me all of a sudden, what the reason was.
Q Why was a blood test necessary?
A It is required by
Q Was he to have a blood test also?
A He told me he was going to have one the
following day.
Q You do not know whether he did or not?
A No, I do not, because I did not see him
again.
Colonel
Dowell. No further questions.
The
Attorney General. Have you any
questions, Colonel?
Colonel
Ristine. No.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q When were you divorced?
A I wasn’t divorced. My husband died five months after
2189
I was married.
Q Your husband died?
A Yes.
Q After Haupt left to go to
A I saw her about two times, I believe.
Q How soon after he left did you see her?
A Oh, I believe it was a week after or a
coupe of days after I received a card.
Q Did you ask her where he was going?
A I asked her. She said she had received one from
Q You said you would not tell him finally
whether you would marry him or not, because you wanted to talk to him about
where he had been?
A Yes.
I wanted to know why he asked to marry me the first evening he saw me.
Q Did he give you and reason?
A Well, he told me that he wanted to marry
me.
Q That surprised you?
A It did in a way, yes, because I hadn’t
heard from him in a year.
Q Why did you want to know where he had
been?
A I didn’t know what to make of it. I hadn’t heard from him for a while
year. He hadn’t written. So I just wanted to know in detail.
Q Did he say he had enough money to marry
you?
A We didn’t discuss that.
Q You did not discuss money?
2190
A No.
He said he could get his old job back.
Q Did he say whether he tried to get his
old job back?
A He said he had been down to the company
and they said he could work again.
Q Did he say anything about registration?
A Yes.
He said he had been down to the draft board.
Q Why did he say he had been down to the
draft board?
A He said he went down to register.
Q Did he say anything else.
A No; that’s all he said.
Q He did not say what he had told the draft
board?
A No.
Q How many times did you see him after he
got back? Just that once?
A Just once.
Q Did he tell you he was going to
A No, he did not mention it.
Q Did he mention any of the other boys he
had been with?
A No.
Q Did he mention how he landed?
A No.
Q You asked him that?
A No, I didn’t. I said, “How did you come back?” And I believe he said he came back on a
train. I can’t remember.
Q He said he came back from where on a
train?
A He said he had been on the West Coast.
Q
A He did not mention that. He just said West Coast.
2191
Q Did he mention whether he had been
outside the country at all?
A No;
just that he had been to
Q How long ago did he say he had been to
A He didn’t say.
Q Did you ask him?
A No.
Q Did you ask him when he left
A No, I did not.
The Attorney
General. That is all.
Colonel
Royall. No further questions.
The
President. The witness may be excused.
The
Attorney General. With the permission of
the Commission, we would like to have Mrs. Haupt, this last witness, and the
witness Froehling returned, counsel having informed us that they do not desire
to question them any more.
Colonel
Royall. Hermann Neubauer. The defendant Hermann Neubauer will be
offered as a witness in this case.
(Hermann Neubauer stepped forward.)
The
President. You are the defendant Hermann
Neubauer?
Mr.
Neubauer. Hermann Neubauer.
The
President. It is my duty to tell you
that you have the legal right now to do any one of several things, just as you
choose. First, if you want to do so, you
may be sworn as a witness and testify under oath in this case, like any other
witness; or , second, if you do not want to be sworn as a witness you may,
without being sworn, say anything about the case to the Commission which you
desire—that is, may what is called
2192
an unsworn statement—or you
may, if you wish, file a written statement with the Commission; or, third, you
may, if you wish, keep silent and say nothing at all.
If
you do take the witness stand and fail to deny or satisfactorily explain any of
the alleged wrongful acts about which you testify at all and about which say
evidence has been presented against you here, such failure on your part may be
commented on to the Commission by the Trial Judge Advocate when he presents his
argument to the Commission at the end of the trial; and the Commission can take
it into consideration in determining whether you are guilty or innocent of the
offenses.
Do
you understand fully all that I have said to you so far?
Mr.
Neubauer. Yes, sir.
The
President. Knowing these various rights,
take time to consult with your counsel, and then state to the Commission which
you will do.
(Colonel Dowell and Mr. Neubauer
consulted.)
Mr.
Neubauer. I would like to take the
stand.
The
President. And be sworn?
Mr.
Neubauer. Yes, sir.
Colonel
Munson. Hold up your right hand. Do you swear that the evidence you shall give
in the case now on hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth so help you God?
Mr.
Neubauer. Yes, sir.
HERMANN
OTTO NEUBAUER
was called as a witness and testified
as follows:
Questions by Colonel Munson:
Q State your full name.
A Hermann Otto Neubauer.
Q You are one of the accused in this case?
A Yes, sir.
The
President. We will remain in recess for
five minutes. Will you please inform me
when you are ready to proceed?
The
Attorney General. Yes, we will.
The
President. We will remain in recess
until so informed.
(There was a short recess, after which
the following occurred:)
2194
The
President. The session will open.
Colonel
Munson. The personnel which was present
before the recess is again present.
The
witness is reminded that he is still under oath.
DIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Your name is what?
A Hermann Otto Neubauer.
Q Where were you born?
A In
Q How long did you live there before coming
to the
A Twenty one years.
Q When did you come to the
A In 1931 I came to the
Q You are now 32 years old?
A Yes, sir.
Q When were you married?
A On January 10, 1940, in
Q What was your occupation in the
A I worked as a cook and a chef.
Q Have you ever at any time made
application for citizenship papers in the
A Yes, sir.
Q How far did you proceed with those
citizenship papers before you returned to
A I had taken out my first paper in 1932,
in
2195
Q Of what year?
A 1939; and I had to go back to
Q That was in September, 1939?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long after that did you remain in
A I remained in
Q What did you do in the period between
your attempt to get citizenship papers and your leaving
A I worked in the Demsey-Vanderbilt
Hotel in
Q When did you first decide to return to
A I had tried after I arrived in
Q The defendant Edward Kerling who is here
in the court room?
A yes; and all together seven fellows, and
we decided to buy a sailboat in which we were going to try to return
2196
to
Q Did you succeed in getting to
A No.
Q Go ahead and tell what happened about it.
A We had bought this sailboat. The name of it was Lekala. We had bought this boat for $1,500, somewhere
near
Q What did you do? Did you go to
A Yes.
They told us we could go to
Q Did you do so?
A Yes, sir; we did so. But we went from Norfold
down the inland Waterwa, and I don’t know exactly the
date—it was the first part of December, 1939—we were picked up.
2197
A Coast Guard boat came alongside at night,
and we were taken to
Q What happened there?
A There the immigration officials came and
the F.B.I. agents from
Q What else happened?
A They searched the boat, mainly, they
told us, for radio apparatus. But we
didn’t have any radio anon board. After
nine days they let us go let us proceed.
I took a bus in
Q During the period that you were stopped
and inspected and apprehended on that trip, were any records of your
fingerprints or any description taken of you?
A Yes, sir. The F.B.I. took pictures of us and took our
fingerprints.
Q Then thereafter did you go to
A I sailed on July 1 on the S.S.
Exochorda, of the American Export Line.
Q When did you arrive in
A On August 3, 1940.
Q Where did you go at that time?
A Right home to my family in
Q Were you drafter in the German Army?
A yes; I was drafted in the German
Army. I had to report on November 14,
1940.
Q What were your duties in the German
Army? What did you do in the German
Army?
A First, I had to report after three
weeks, and a
2198
lieutenant and sergeant came
to this army post and asked me different questions, where I came from, and
mainly could I talk English; and they seemed to be satisfied and took me to
Q Without going into too many details on
that, did you get into the fighting forces that were on either of the fronts?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you regiment go, and were you
engaged in any action or did you receive any wounds?
A Yes, sir. In May we left
Q What wounds did you receive.
A I have shell splinters in my right cheek
and in my leg. I still have one large
shell splinter, as large as a lima bean, in my cheek, near the jaw bone, and
two small fragments above the right eye.
Q As a result of the injury to your head
did you have any form of paralysis of speech?
A For two days I was not able to speak at
all, and then gradually I was able to speak, and I started like a child would
start speaking or talking.
Q Were you removed to a hospital?
2199
A Yes; I was taken first to Krakow in an
airplane and then y train to Stuttgart, Germany, where I stayed for six months
in the army hospital.
Q What was your condition while you were in
the hospital?
A I still have headaches—not so much any
more. I had pain in my cheek. They wanted to operate on my head, but it was
too dangerous, because the splinters are too near the brain.
Q What was the condition of your nervous
system? How were your nerves?
A I was sent twice not exactly to a
sanitarium; it was an old castle. I was
sent there for my nerves, on account of my nerves.
Q How did it affect you? How was your nervous condition? Describe it as best you can.
A I get excited about every little thing
very easily, and any noise makes me nervous.
Q How long ahs that condition continued?
A I would say I am still in this condition;
not as bad any more as I was in the beginning, but I am still in that
condition.
Q How were you treated by the medical
authorities in connection with your hospital period?
A In
2200
class railroad cars with
wooden benches, and eight to ten fellows in a compartment. We were unable to sleep or anything.
Q When you got out of the hospital what
date was it?
A I don’t know exactly the date. In the middle of November, 1941.
Q Where did you go then?
A First, I was sent back to my battalion
in
Q What did you do there?
A We had recreation and aparts, because all of the soldiers there had come from
different hospitals and were unable to do any duty.
Q That was a convalescent place, while you
were getting well?
A Yes.
Q How long did you stay there?
A Until I was ordered to report.
Q Did you receive a written order to
report?
A Yes, sir.
Q Before you received that order had you
made any inquiry or had anyone seen you about going?
A I had been in the hospital again in
Q What did you upon receiving that letter?
A I answered this letter and told him I
would go.
2201
Q Then did you receive orders to go?
A No, not right away. I got the order the Monday before Easter
Q What was your rank in the army at that
time?
A Private
Q First-class?
A No; just private.
Q How long had you been in the army?
A Seventeen months.
Q Did you ever get any promotion?
A No; I did not.
Q What did you do when got those orders to
go to school?
A I was given a railroad ticket and an
order from the regiment to report at a school, Ranke Strasse 6.
Q When you were asked whether you would go
on some duty in a country where you had lived, did they give you any
information as to what the type or duty would be?
A No; they did not. I thought, naturally, as a soldier, it would
be as a soldier. I didn’t know exactly
where it would be. I had been working on
boats and had been all over the world, I may say, in
Q Did they give you at that time any
information that you were to go then as a uniformed soldier?
A They did not tell me anything. I as called and I had to report to the
officer of my company and he told me to get ready and get my things ready and
he gave me the railroad tickets and the order to report.
2202
Q When did you first find out that you were
going to wear civilian clothes?
A When I got that order.
Q What did you do then?
A I went to
Q What did you tell your family and what
did you yourself think about the order to wear civilian clothes?
A It is hard to answer that. I might answer it this way. As a soldier, you are not supposed to think;
and I did not. I just got the order and
I didn’t know what for.
Q And you went?
A I just went; that is all. As a soldier I didn’t have to have any of my
own mind.
Q What did you do when you got to the
school? When did you find out what it
was?
A When Lieutenant Kappe told us in the
school, when we were all there together.
I think it was the second day after we arrived at the school. He told us that we were going to be trained
in different ways of committing sabotage and that we were going to the
Q What did you do when you got that
information?
A I could not do anything as a
soldier. Lieutenant Kappe was a
lieutenant, which, in
Q Did you discuss it with anyone at that
time?
A No.
2203
Q Then you attended the courses at the
school?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you talk with anyone during the
course as to the trip to
2204
Q Did you receive instructions at school as
to what you were to do in
A Yes, we got instructions from Dr. Koenig
and Dr. Schultz how to prepare and mix different chemicals to make explosives.
Q Were you given any instructions as to
whether or not you would kill or harm any people when you were in
A No, they told us—and I am not sure
exactly—two or three different times that we should always watch out; that w
should not kill or harm any American citizens.
They did not wan it to arouse the feelings of the American citizens.
Q Were you given any specific instructions
about wrecking trains?
A Yes, we were.
Q What were you told about that?
A Well, we were told, first, to watch a
certain line or track—watch, perhaps, when freight trains may pass. We should take care that we didn’t put any
dynamite on any track if there were any passenger trains passing.
Q Were you given any instructions to get
any military information or other information and send it back to
A No, it was never mentioned.
Q Did you learn secret writing?
A Yes, we did.
Q For what purpose were you to learn that?
A To communicate between ourselves here in
this country.
Q Were you instructed in any method of
communicating anything out of the country?
2205
A No, never.
Q Did you know anything about any
handkerchiefs and addresses on them?
A No, I didn’t.
Q Did you know anything about that until
this trial?
A Yes, that is when I heard the first of
it.
Q You heard the first of it at this trial?
A At this trial, yes.
Q Were you given any information of any
kind for the purpose of sending it to anybody?
A No.
Q During your stay in the camp and up to
the time you sailed on the submarine, I believe you said you just followed
orders; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q When, if at anytime, during your
schooling did you begin to have any doubts about this plan?
A Well, I could say exactly when. When I found out that I was going on as an
agent over to the
Q What could you do about it?
A I couldn’t do nothing about it.
Q Did you talk with anybody about not
liking it before
2206
you left there?
A Well, I mentioned to Lieutenant Kappe—I
told him I didn’t think it was right that he would send me over to the United
States. I gave an excuse that I had been
picked up by the F.B.I. before, and the F.B.I. know me over in the United
States, so if I would be picked up on any occasion, they would know right away
who I was; and he just told me, “Never mind.
You are just not going to be picked up; that is all there is to it.”
Q Did you at any other time make an effort
to get out of the trip while you were over there?
A Well, the last effort, I would say, I
made—Kerling and I made—after we had found out about the money in the hotel in Loriant.
Q What do you mean by “about the money”?
A Well, we had found out that we had gold
certificates in the –in our money, and we opened a couple of money belts, and,
as I recall it now, I had $200 of bad money in my money belt.
Q Whom did you talk to about it at that
time?
A Well, first we all were surprised and
nervous and , I would say, disappointed, because they always told us what we
had to do wand what they expected of us; and then being so careless with an
important matter like that, in giving us bad money; so this naval officer in
civilian clothes who came with us from Paris—he mentioned that he would call up
Paris and from there Berlin to find out what should be done about it; and Kappe
just said, “Well, it sin thing just can be done about it; that is not so
important”; and we have to go ahead.
He
said that again. When we went out of the
hotel—out of the room—Kerling and I stopped Kappe and started to talk about it,
and this naval officer in civilian clothes told him we didn’t feel like going
after this incident, and he said—he gave me a certain look as if he was going
to say, “Well, you just have nothing to say.”
Kerling wouldn’t talk like that, and he just told Kerling he couldn’t
back out; he just had to go ahead, now.
Q Before you left, did any member of the
school or any instructor notice any nervousness on your part and make any
remark about it?
A Well, I don’t know if they noticed about
my nervous condition. The morning we got
on the train in
Kappe
was sitting next to me, and during this breakfast he made the remark, “Well,
everybody else seems to have the right spirit, only Hermann is the only one I
noticed doesn’t seem to like much,” so I just—well, I can’t remember exactly
the words he said, but he told me that he had noticed that I didn’t get along
so well.
Q You still followed orders, though, and
got on the submarine and came across, did you?
A Yes, sir.
Q While on the boat or on the submarine,
did you communicate with anyone back in
A Yes, I did. I felt—at that beginning I felt bad about the
whole thing—being and agent—and I felt bad about
2208
different things; the way
they treated me in the army after I had before seen in this country and in
Germany in propaganda what they would do and how high the German soldier is
rated, and especially a wounded soldier; nothing would be too good for a
soldier, especially a wounded soldier; everything possible should be done to
them; and after I had this bad experience, I just didn’t think so much about it
any more, and on the submarine I had quite a lot of time to think all those
things over.
At
the beginning, I didn’t know exactly what I was going to do. But then—I don’t know exactly—the third or
fourth day before we landed, I wrote a letter to my wife in
Well,
so, on the submarine before landing I wrote her that should try to get on one
of the Swedish boats taking American citizens and diplomats from Europe to the
United States, as they were exchanging citizens and diplomats between the
United States and Germany, and she as a born American and
2209
as an American citizen would
have a chance to go back to the States, and she should try to get on one of
those boats.
Q Did you show that letter to anyone?
A Yes, I did. At first, I didn’t know what to do about
it. I showed it to Edward Kerling. I was kind of suspicious what he might say
about it, as he was—well, not exactly my boss, but he was the leader of the
group, anyway. If he would have
protested about it or would have told me I was doing wrong, I just would have
told him I was going to tear up the letter.
But when he read this—I showed him this part of the letter—he just gave
me a look, and – well, I was kind of glad that he didn’t bawl me out on account
of that. I realized I would say, that he
didn’t blame me for it; he thought it was all right.
Q You considered him your commanding
officer at that time, did you?
A Yes, he was to be my—he was to be the
leader of the group.
Q You were taking order from him?
A Yes, sir.
Q Hermann, after you landed in the
A Well, I was sure glad when we had those
boxes buried on the beach, that we had them off our hands, so we could get away
from the beach. I was nervous all along.
Q Did you spend the night in
A Yes.
We walked down the beach for about an hour, hour and a half, and rested
upon the beach till about eleven o’clock in the morning, and we took—we got a
bus to
2210
myself—we separated, Thiel
and Haupt together, and Kerling and I.
We went to the Seminole hotel in
Q Did you go to
A Yes, the next day. We had bought some clothes, and we couldn’t
get them the same day; we had to come
back for them the next day—the suit—so on Friday morning we left for Jacksonville—for
Cincinnati—Kerling and I.
Q On your way to
A Well, we had been watching the railroad
and we had passed a few small factories, I suppose they were, and had seen on
the railroad and the railroad stations that every place where an agent placed,
and we had seen in the factories watchmen, and—well, we were so nervous. We realized how nervous we were and how
everything was watched. It made us more
nervous, and we both talked it over and – well, we just came to the conclusion
that we would not have a chance to go through with our orders.
Q That was you and Kerling? Was anybody else with you, or just you two?
A Just us two.
Q How long did you stay in
A We arrived in
Q Where did you stay in
2211
A I arrived in
Q What was your nervous condition at that
time?
A Well, I had felt right along on the
train—Kerling, too—that we were watched.
In
Since
when I arrived in
Q How did you nervousness affect your
ability to eat and sleep?
A Well, I just – my stomach was
upset. I had to force myself to
eat. I didn’t go out for breakfast; I had breakfast served in my room. But then every time when the waiter knocked
at the door, I was afraid that it may be somebody with whom I had worked
before, as I had been in
Q Hermann, when you were on the boat and
before them, what was the plan as to when these explosives would be used?
A Well, we had orders from Lieutenant
Kappe when we came over here we should take plenty of time, perhaps three
months; and if that would not be enough, up to six months, to get us—to get
acquainted with conditions and get—try to get—papers and, well, get used to the
way of living in this country again.
2212
Q Well, now, when you separated in
A Well, one thing I did know, that Kerling
and Dasch were supposed to meet on Labor Day, July 4, in the Gibson Hotel, in
Cincinnati.
Q You said Labor Day. You mean Independence Day?
A Independence Day.
Q In
A Yes.
Q And they were to meet in
A No.
That evening when we arrived in Cincinnati we met with Herbie Haupt, and
we arranged to meet in Chicago—Herbie Haupt and I—and before I left Kerling in
Cincinnati he told me that he would come to Chicago—I should stay in Chicago
till July 6th, and he would register in the Knickerbocker Hotel, and
I should call him up at 10 o’clock in the morning July 6th. That’s when we would talk things over, what
we were going to do. We had talked about
it before on the boat already, and then later on, before arriving in
Q Now, when did you talk about if you could
not go through with it you would go to
A Well, the first time it came up between
Kerling and myself two or three days before we landed with the submarine, and
then after we had talked about not being able to go through with out plan, on
the trip to Cincinnati we had talked about it again; but Kerling told me I
should stay in Chicago, and then
2213
we would all four—he would
talk with Thiel and find out from Thiel, and then we would talk about it when
we were all together, what we were going to do.
Q Well, was it planned that you do any sabotage
at all before July 6th?
A No. As I have said before, we were not going to
do any sabotage for at least not before three months.
Q Now, when you got to
A Yes.
I met Herbie Haupt Sunday, the 21st of June, around 1:30, in front
of the Chicago Theatre in
Q Did you tell him that Kerling had said
that you would meet there on July 6th?
A Yes.
When I met him he told me, “Let’s get away here. We may be watched by the F.B.I..” and we went
to the Grant Park, I believe it is, sat on a bench there, and talked things
over.
He
told me how he had arrived, and I told him that Kerling had told me he would
come to
Q What did you and Haupt talk about with
reference to the possibility of carrying out the plan?
A Well, we talked about it, but we talked
about it that there was no possibility to go through with the plan.
Q What, if anything, was said about what
would happen on July 6?
A I told him Kerling had told me how would
talk it over when he arrived; we should wait for him until he came to
Q Had you decided that you were going to do
on the 6th when he came?
2214
A No, we had not decided what to do.
Q What has been you physical condition,
your nervous condition, since you cam to this country?
A Well, as I have said before, I was
always very nervous. I bought myself a
bottle of rum. I am not very fond of
alcohol, but I thought if I would take some alcohol it would calm down my
nerves; and once in the La Salle Hotel, in the morning the plumber came in—not
the plumber—the electrician—because my light wasn’t working. He knocked on the door. I jumped up and was shaking all over when he
came in the room.
Q Would you have ever gone through with any
plan of sabotage?
A No.
I had made up my mind on the submarine when I had wrote my wife to try
to come to the
Q You did not quite answer my
question. Would you have gone through
with the plan of sabotage, do you think?
A I say, I made up my mind on the
submarine when I wrote this letter to my wife that I would not go through with
it.
Q Hermann, you gave how many statements to
the F.B.I.?
A I gave three statements to the F.B.I.
Q The first one was not correct in some
particulars, was it?
A No, it was not.
Q Why did you give the F.B.I. and incorrect
statement at first?
A Well, as I had heard room the Jacques on
Friday evening, the 26th, before I was arrested—I had visited with
2215
them in the evening, and they
had told me that they had hear on the radio that German submarines had landed
agents in the
Would
you please tell me that question again?
I forgot.
Q Why did you not tell the F.B.I. the true
facts when you first gave the statement?
A So naturally I thought and I am sure
that over in Berlin, in Germany, they would know about it and would hear about
it, as it would come out here right away in the newspaper and on the radio, and
they sure would be watching everything over there; and if I would have told the
F.B.I.—would have told them everything—that I was a soldier and that I had been
sent over here—they naturally would have taken my wife to a concentration camp,
and she would never have a chance to get away from Germany—never would even be
able to make arrangements—would put her right away in the concentration camp,
and I was afraid of that.
Q Did you later, in your later
statements—give the F.B.I. all the facts that you had about this matter?
A Yes, I did. I gave them statements—I even gave them statements—in
the statements—I gave them different things which are not in the statements.
Q You mean you told them things which they
did not write down in these statements?
A That’s right.
Q Did you tell them that you had reached
the decision on the submarine when you wrote your wife that you could not
actually commit sabotage?
A No, I did not.
2216
Q You did not tell them that?
A No.
I was afraid it would come to
Q Hermann, are there any other facts that I
have not asked you about that you want to state to this Commission? I am confident that they will let you do so.
A No, not that I could think of right now.
Q You were acting under orders until the
time you thought that you could not go through with it; is that right?
A Yes, I was. I even was afraid when I shoed Kerling this
letter—part of the letter—because he could have told the submarine commander of
it—well, I don’t know what he would have done with me. I suppose he would have taken me back to
Q In connection with that letter, the
orders were that you were to send no sealed letters back, were they not?
A Yes.
Q What did Eddie do when you presented this
letter sealed to him? Do you recall
that? Do you remember his saying
anything to the captain?
A yes.
He had some letters, and my letter was sealed, and he said, “Well, you
aren’t supposed to seal your letter,” and the captain was there and he said, “Never
mind. I am not going to read your letters.”
I am
not sure exactly what words he put it, but something to that matters.
Colonel
Royall. That is all.
2217
CROSS
EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Neubauer, you took your first papers out in
1932?
A That’s right, in
Q Were you a member of the German American
Bund in
A Yes, till 1936 the order came that all
German citizens had to get out of the Bund.
Q You were forced to resign then?
A Yes.
Q Were you a member of the Deutsch
Volksbund in
A Yes, I was.
Q What is that society?
A Well, those fellows who had been in the
Bund—German citizens who had been in the Bund in
Q And did it have the same purpose as the
Bund had?
A No.
We just came together, and I even believe—I am not sure they are under
orders of the German Consul?
Q Under orders of the German Counsul?
A Yes—well, I don’t know exactly how to put
it. Whenever we had a small affair or
something, the German Consul had to –
Q Had to approve it?
A Had to approve it, that’s right.
Q And your society was in close touch with
the German Counsul?
A Yes, that’s right.
2218
Q You said the purposes were very different
from the Bund. What did the Bund
do? What were their activities?
A Well, the Bund was an American society.
Q But what was its purpose? What did it do? Is it purely social?
A Which Bund do you mean now?
Q I mean the German American Bund, the one
you belonged to.
A The one I first belonged to?
Q The one you first belonged to, the Bund.
A Well, they tried to get all the German
societies together to one big union, I would say.
Q A union for what purpose? Was the purpose to help the Fatherland?
A No.
The American Bund was strictly an American Organization.
Q Strictly American?
A Yes.
Whether they were in American politics, I am not sure of.
Q I think they were. Was Kappe a member of the Bund?
A I have seen Kappe in 1935 once in
Q What was the meeting where he made the
speech in
A Well, the Bund always had every
Wednesday a meeting.
Q It was their regular Wednesday meeting?
A Yes.
Q What did he talk about, do you remember?
2219
A No.
Q Did he talk about the members of the Bund
going back to
A NO, he did not talk about that.
Q Wasn’t Kappe the editor of the Bund
newspaper at that time?
A That’s what I heard later on.
Q You heard that later?
A Yes.
Q What was the name of that newspaper?
A I am not sure, but I think it was the
Deutscher Werkruf.
Q Would you spell that for the reporter?
A D-e-u-t-s-c-h-e-r
W-e-r-k-r-u-f.
The
President. Since he used German and I am
not familiar with German any more, can that be translated?
The
Attorney General. I was just going to
ask that.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Would you translate that name so that we
know what it means in English?
A Well, it is very hard.
Q Well, just the best you can.
A I wouldn’t know.
Q Do the words mean, “Germans Awake” or
“Alarm”?
A Well, “Werkruf” is “Alarm Corps.”
Q German Alarm Corps?
A Something like that you could translate
it.
Q Did you stay after the meeting and talk
with Kappe, with some other persons?
A No.
2220
Q You went right home after he finished
talking?
A No. I talked to some of the other
fellows.
Q Did you meet Kappe that night?
A No.
Q When did you first meet him? In
A In
Q You did not see him again in
A No.
Q What is the N.S.D.A.P., do you know, in
A Well, the N.S.D.A.P. is the National
German Labor Party.
Q Perhaps you could give us the name. “N” stands for “National”?
A National Socialist Deutscher—Socialist,
and ”D” stands for Deutscher, “A” for Arbiter, labor.
Q What does the “P” stand for?
A Partei, party.
Q You were a member of that in 1937?
A I became a member of that party in 1937
in
Q Why did you join that party?
A I had been in
Questions by a Member:
Q What?
A During the Olympic games of 1936, and I
had seen some improvement, and there were not very many unemployed any more in
Germany, and all the people seemed to be feeling content, and I thought I may
go back some day to Germany.
Questions by Attorney General:
2221
Q How did you join it? Did you have to make application to the
German Consul to join it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you make application?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Who was the German consul?
A At that time it was Dr. Tannenberg—he was
consul in
Q He was consul in
A Yes.
Q At that time were you required to take
any oath?
A No, I was not required – well, it wasn’t
exactly an oath. He told me to be a good
member, a good standing member, on the N.S.D.A.P.
Q And of the Nazi party?
A The N.S.D.A.P. is the Nazi party.
Q That is the Nazi Party?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you said you would be a good member
of the Nazi Party?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you purchase Reuckwanderer marks in
1936?
A Yes, sir.
Q How many did you purchase?
A A thousand dollars, 4000 marks.
Q Where did you have them sent?
A Well, I am not sure now of the bank—the
German Reichsbank or the Dresdner Bank.
2222
Q It was with the purpose of creating a
credit for you in
A Yes; that I would some day return to
Q And marks were sold, were they not, only
with the approval of the German consul; do you know?
A I don’t remember.
Q The idea was, was it not, that you were
going back to live permanently in
A Yes; if you would go back to say in
Q To stay there permanently?
A Yes, sir.
Q I would like to know a little bit more
about this trip on the boat that you bought.
What was the purpose of your buying this boat? To go back to
A As I said before, to try to go back to
Q Why did you want to go back then? Did you want to go back there to work because
work was more easily obtainable there?
A Because I could not get a job in
Q What kind o papers did you have after you
go the boat and were picked up? Did you
have any papers at all?
A I had my German passport.
Q That had been issued by whom—the German
consul?
A I believe it was, sir, issued by the
German consul in
2223
Q Did you see anyone connected with the
German consul’s office before getting your passport?
A No, sir.
I was introduced to Kerling on
Q Give me his exact name.
A I don’t know his first name.
Q How do you spell his last name?
A M-E-T-T-E-N-G.
Q He introduced you to Kerling for what
purpose? Did he say?
A No. I had known Metteng from
Q Had Metteng been in the Bund too?
A I don’t think he has been in the
Bund. He sold some German books.
Q In
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know his address there?
A He is not in
Q Where is he now?
A He is in
Q What is he doing in
A I don’t know that.
Q You did not see him there?
A I saw him once.
Q Where?
A In December, 1940.
Q What was he doing then?
A He had just recently arrived from the
2224
Q You testified with respect to your
receiving a letter from Kappe. Was it
signed by Kappe?
A Yes; it was typewritten and signed in
ink by Kappe.
Q What was the heading of the letter?
A It had just a date on it.
Q No letterhead at all?
A No, sir; no letterhead. It was just a small piece of paper.
Q Did the letter ay anything at all about
the kind of special assignment you were to have?
A No. It said:
“Soldier
Hermann Neubauer, I ask you if you would like to go on a special assignment to
a country where you have been before.”
And
it was signed by Lieutenant Kappe.
Q Had Kerling known Kappe in
A I don’t know that.
Q Did he ever tell you he knew Kappe in
A No, sir.
Q You do not know whether Kerling gave
Kappe your name or not, do you?
A No: I do not. I don’t know exactly when it was, but during
the course in the school I asked Kappe why had had picked me and how he had
picked me or where he had found me or how he had found me, and he told me it
was none of my business.
Q Did he seem to have your record there
when he talked to you? Did he have a
record of you?
A No, sir; he did not, but he seemed to
know every-
2225
thing about me.
Q You saw all the other seven defendants at
the sabotage school, did you not?
A Yes, sir; I did.
Q What were your instructions at the school
with respect to what you were to do after your first came to
A As I have said before, we should get
used to the living conditions in the
Q Were you told to register again?
A I was not.
Q Were any of the others told to register again?
A We were not registered at all. We could not register again.
Q In addition to your false registration
cards were you told to make any attempt to register?
A No; we were not.
Q Were you told to get any kind of
employment?
A They told us—they left it up to us,
whatever we saw fit. We should perhaps
open a business or a paint shop or perhaps for a few weeks take a job as a
chauffeur or gardener, and then perhaps in a restaurant or hotel, and through
this we might get a real Social Security card.
Q Were the leaders of the groups supposed
to report back to
A I didn’t know anything about that.
Q Did not Kerling tell you that you were
supposed to
2226
report back to
A No; he did not
Q I think you said you were supposed to communicate
among yourselves in this country?
A Yes.
Q What were you supposed to communicate
among yourselves?
A If I wanted to see Kerling, for
instance, or any of the other boys, I would write them a letter, an ordinary
letter, like a business letter, and then in ink on the other side I should
write whatever I wanted to, like I wanted to meet him in Chicago on a certain
date.
Q You would write anything, in other words,
in invisible ink that you did not want known if the letter should be captured?
A Yes, sir.
Q You said, I think, that you did not like
the idea of being an agent. Is that
right?
A Yes.
Q What did you mean by agent—an agent of
what?
A Like they save over there, a V-man.
Q What is a V-man? What does he do? I do not understand that.
A A man they trust with a certain order.
Q Why is a V-man different from anybody
else that they trust with an order? A
soldier is trusted with an order. What
is a V-man? How does he differ from a
soldier?
A He is in civilian clothes.
Q And on a secret mission?
A Yes; I suppose so.
2227
Q To collect information?
A It all depends. We only had orders to sabotage.
Q You told Kappe you were afraid the F.B.I.
might pick you up here, that they knew you did you not?
A Yes; I told him I didn’t see why he sent
me over here because the F.B.I. knew me already; that if they would catch me,
all they had to do would be to take my fingerprints again, and they would know
who I am.
Q Did Kappe say whether there were agents
of the Gestapo in the F.B.I. over here?
A I don’t know that.
Q Did you hear that on any side?
A I did not.
Q Do you know whether there were any agents
of the F.B.I. in the Gestapo?
A No.
Q You did not hear that?
A No, sir.
Q What did Kappe tell you to do in case you
were arrested over here?
A He told up, or told me, not to say
anything.
Q Not to say anything?
A Yes, sir.
Q Was not any history to be prepared of
what you had been doing in the last three or four months?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was that?
A We were all told to put up a story of
where we had been born, what kind of work we had been doing in the last
2228
couple of years.
Q What was your story?
A I was born in
Q Will you spell that, please?
A W-a-l-s-t-e-n. That name was given me by George Dasch. He told me at that time he knew that that
town did not exist any more, because his wife was born there.
Q Did George make up that story for you?
A No; he just told me this name.
Q Who made up the rest of the story? Did you make it up?
A Yes.
Q What nationality were you to be?
A An American, as I was born in Walsten.
Q What else? Was there anything else?
A That my mother went back to Lithuania
where she and my father had been born, in 1914 when the war started, and on
account of the war my mother could not come back to the United States and had
to stay there during the war, over in Lithuania or, at that time, Russia.
Q What name were you to use over here?
A Henry Nicholas.
Q Did you ever use that name?
A Yes; I did.
Q Where?
A In the hotel.
Q What hotel?
A The Seminole Hotel in
2229
Q What address did you give when you used
that name?
A I am not sure what number. It was on
Q Was there such an address?
A I don’t know.
Q Who had suggested that you use that
address?
A I just made it up.
Q When did you make it up?
A Just before the registration cards were
filled out by George Dasch.
Q You made up the
A Yes; I did; the same address that is on
my registration card.
Q What did you mean by finding $200 of bad
money? I believe you used that
expression in the
Q Why did you think that was bad—because
you might have been traced?
A If I had bought anything I probably
would have been picked up right away.
Q And that is what made you nervous.
A That is what us all nervous.
Q You were nervous because they had given
you money which might have led to your arrest?
A Because they didn’t think any more or
our safety.
Q I think you said that Kappe said
everybody else seemed to have the right spirit but you; is that right?
A Yes;
he made that statement the last morning before
2230
we left for
Q Was that the first time that that thought
had occurred to you?
A I had thought about different things
before, as I have said: the treatment I had received as a wounded soldier, and
I had seen pictures, propaganda pictures and news reels in which they showed
you how they took care of German wounded soldiers; that nothing was good enough
for them; and the I had those bad experiences.
Q Did everybody else except you seem to
have the right spirit?
A I would not know. That is just what he said to me—“Everybody
else seems to have the right spirit but you.”
Q Do you know whether or not Kappe was
connected with the Intelligence Office of the German Army?
A I don’t know what certain part of the
army he was connected with.
2231
Q I am not quite sure what you said in the
letter to your wife that was given to one of the men to deliver. Did you tell her you were not going to
school?
A No.
I couldn’t tell her anything. I
couldn’t put in the paper “I am on the way to the
Q You suggested to her that she should try
to come over to the
A Yes; I told her after we had this
argument in
Q (Interposing) – I am trying to get at
what you sent in that letter. Was not
that in the letter?
2232
A Yes, it was in that letter.
Q You referred to the argument in that
letter?
A I referred to the argument in that
letter and that she didn’t like it and didn’t feel so well at home with my
folks, because living conditions are much different over there than they are in
this country, and I told her I didn’t know how much longer this war might last. It may be a year or two or three, or nobody
does know how long this war may last; and I have told—this I didn’t put in the
paper—
Q (interposing) I want to know just what
went into the letter.
Colonel
Royall. May it please the Commission—
Question by the Attorney General:
Q Say anything you want to. I am trying to get, first, what went into the
letter.
Colonel
Royall. May it please the Commission, I
think the Attorney General wants the same result I do. He wants this witness to tell it. I should like to respectfully suggest that
the witness is having difficulty with the language and with expression and
should be given just a little leeway in his answers.
The
Attorney General. Well, I just want to
be clear, when he is answering, what answer goes to the letter and what does
not.
The
President. I think the questions of the
Attorney General are pertinent to the cross-examination. The letter has been brought out by you,
Colonel Royall.
Colonel
Royall. Yes, Sir.
The
President. I think this will clarify it.
Colonel
Royall. There is no objection to
it. I was not
2233
objecting to the examination
at all; I was merely suggesting that I
thought we would get along better if he would let the witness answer these
questions in his own way.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Now, Mr. Neubauer, I am trying to find
out what you said in the letter itself.
So far you have said you referred in the letter to the dispute you had
with your wife?
A Yes.
Q You suggested that as she was not
satisfied with the conditions over there, she could come back to the United
Sates; is that right?
A Yes.
I told her as I have heard, and it was over in German in the newspaper,
that American or German citizens and German diplomats had come back to, I
believe it was, Lisbon—had come back from the United States, and that in return
the American diplomats and citizens were transferred to the United States, and
I have known of one or have heard of one case where an American was going back
and had tied to go back, and she should try the same thing. If she couldn’t get and American consul any
more, she should try to go to a Swiss consul, and he could arrange things for
her.
Q Did you suggest in the letter where she
could get in touch with you in
A No.
As I said before, I didn’t mention anything that I would be in the
Q You were not afraid that the letter you
wrote her would get her into trouble?
A No, not this way, the way I wrote it.
2234
A Yes, I was nervous. I believe the others were, too, but I believe
I was very nervous.
Q Afraid of being arrested?
A Well, I expected almost anything.
Q What do you mean by “anything”?
A I expected being arrested, yes, sir.
Q You thought you were being watched all
the time?
A I thought I had been watched since we
got on the train in
Q I think you stated you first discussed on
the submarine with Kerling your plans as to what you would do. Was it first on the submarine that you talked
to him?
A Yes.
Q Excuse me.
A After I had showed him this letter,
telling my wife to try to go back to the States, and noticing that he—well,
didn’t gve me—didn’t report me to the captain and
that he seemed to be satisfied or agreed with it, he even made the remark about
it—well, it is something like this: “Maybe we both going have our wife again.”
Colonel
Royall. He is talking about Kerling?
The
Attorney General. Yes.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Was there anymore conversation then about
what your plans were?
A Well, not exactly at that time. Well, we just didn’t know how to approach each
other, I suppose. We didn’t know if we
could trust each other, opening up, telling each other what we really thought
and felt, as long as we were on
2235
the submarine and one could
turn the other one in. We talked about
it—that if we realized we couldn’t go through with it, we would try to get down
to
Q So, as I take it, it was left that when
you decided you could not go through with it, you then would go to
A Yes.
We did not, as I have said before—I had decided on the submarine I would
not go through with it, and I just as waiting and watching for a way to get out
of this, and after I talked with Kerling about the things, I felt, I would say,
glad about it, that it would turn out this way, that I wouldn’t have to go
through with it, that I wouldn’t go wrong on Kerling.
Q did you tell the F.B.I. about your talk
with Kerling?
A No, I didn’t.
Q When you were on the train with Kerling,
was that the next time you talked to him about the possibility of not going
through with it?
A Yes.
After we had noticed the way everything was watched—the railroad
stations, railroads, and a few factories we passed,—and as we had both noticed
that we were not sure, naturally, but we thought we were watched on the train,
and then we talked about it, that we would not have a chance to go through with
it, than we talked more open about it.
Then
he said we would not go through with it and that we would talk it over between
ourselves—between out group—and the decide what to do.
2236
Q Decide on July 6 whether or not to go
through with it?
A Well, that is what Kerling told me later
on, before I left him in
Q You would then decide on July 6, after
talking with the other two boys of the group, whether or not you would go
through with it; is that right?
A Well, we decided that already on the
train—Kerling—that we were going to decide what we were going to do—if we were
going to Mexico, or we even mentioned Canada, or if that—if we would not have a
chance to move any other place, to move to those countries, we were going to
give up to the F.B.I.
Q The suggested that? Did Kerling suggest that?
A No, I believe I did.
Q You suggested to Kerling that you might
have to give yourselves up to the F.B.I.?
A If there is no other way out, and the
F.B.I. knows us, the best thing in the end may be to go and report to the
F.B.I.
Q What did Kerling say to that plan?
A Well, he said we would have to wait
until we all agreed on it. We would not
do anything till we all agreed on it. We
would not well, not one of us would go and say, “Here I am”; if anything turned
out that we could not go to Mexico, then we would all together report to the
F.B.I.
2237
Q Had you talked to either of the other two
boys like that?
A No, I just told Herbie Haupt after I—
Q (interposing) That was later?
A Yes.
Q But before that had you talked to any of them
or either of them?
A No, I have not.
Q Did Kerling say anything about what you
were going to do with explosives?
A Well, we didn’t see no way to ever get
those explosives again.
Q You talked it over, I suppose?
A Yes.
Q Did he suggest any plans which you
thought could not be carried out?
Colonel
Royall. When was this?
The
Witness. No, we talked about it, and we
realized that we would not have any way—there were no way to get to those
explosives.
By the Attorney General:
Q Did he not say something about sending
some girl down to get them?
A No.
Q He did not say that to you?
A No.
Q Did you say anything to the F.B.I. about
your talk with Kerling on the train at all?
A I told the F.B.I.—well, that we felt
that we
2238
were watched and that we were
nervous and were afraid to go to the diner to eat and that we were afraid to
get a newspaper, but I didn’t tell them that we decided to give up, as I
thought they would hear it over in Germany on the radio.
Q When you saw Haupt in
A No, I didn’t. I was—well, I was going to leave that up to
Kerling, or rather we would talk all together on what we were going to decide.
Q You saw Jaques?
A Yes, I saw Jaques.
Q Was he a member of the Bund?
A I don’t know. I don’t think so. I am not sure. I couldn’t say.
Q Did he know about it?
A No.
Q Where did you see Jaques?
A In
Q Where?
A In his home.
Q Why did you go to see Jaques?
A Well, after I arrived in Chicago and thought
I was watched by the F.B.I., And I was nervous, and I had this money belt with
$4,000—at that time it was $3,800—I wanted to get rid of the money, that is why
I wanted to see Jaques.
Q What did you do with the money?
A I gave the money to Jaques.
Q Did you tell him what was in it?
2239
A Yes, I had the money in two envelopes.
Q You had taken it out of the belt?
A I had taken the money out of the belt in
my room in the La Salle Hotel.
Q Jaques did not see the belt?
A No.
Q What did you do with the belt?
A I cut the belt up with my—with my razor
blade.
Q In your hotel room?
A Yes.
Q What did you tell Jaques about the money
and where you got it from?
A Well, I don’t know exactly when I told
it to them, but I told him that I had
come from Germany and that I had this money—that this money was given me in
Germany, and I would like them to keep it up for me.
Q Did you tell him about the saboteur
school?
A No, I didn’t.
Q How did you describe the group when you
told him the money had been given to the group?
A I didn’t tell him anything about the
group.
Q What did you say to him?
A I told him there was another
fellow. I didn’t tell him the name. And then—I don’t know how it came out, but Mrs.
Jaques told me that she had received a letter from Mrs. Kerling, and then I
told the both of them that Kerling had come over with me.
Q Well, did you tell him how you got over?
A Mrs. Jaques went in the kitchen to make
some
2240
sandwiches and coffee, and
then I told Mr. Jaques that I had come
over on the submarine.
Q That is a little unusual. Did he ask you about why you had come over on
the submarine?
A No, I don’t think he asked me; I told
him.
Q You just told him you had come over on
the submarine, and he did not ask you how you had come over or why you had come
over?
A Well, he didn’t ask me that, no.
Q Jaques said he would keep the money for
you?
A Yes.
Q What did you propose to do with the
money?
A Well, I didn’t tell him. I told him that is the money I was going to
live on.
Q Did you see anybody else in the
A No, I didn’t see anybody. Mr. and Mrs. Jaques and Herbie Haupt were the
only people.
Q The only people you talked to?
A The only people I have talked to since I
arrived in
Q Did you plan to see anybody else over
here if you had not been arrested?
A No, I didn’t. I didn’t want to see anybody after I got
nervous and didn’t know what to do with the money, and then I decided to see
the Jaques.
Q Why did you not immediately go to the
F.B.I. after you landed in
A Well, at that time Kerling and I didn’t
have—had
2241
not talked it over the way we
did on the train.
Q So you had not decided?
A At that time Kerling and I had not
decided, no.
Q About the money belt: You first told the F.B.I. that you had thrown
it off the train because you thought you were being watched?
A Yes, I did.
Q That was not true, was it?
A No, it wasn’t
Q Why did you tell them that?
A Because I felt very bad about
it—dragging Mr. and Mrs. Jaques in this affair.
They were very good friends of my wife, and my wife always spoke very
highly of them, and—well, I just—I felt bad about it that I had dragged these
people in an affair that they didn’t have nothing to do with.
Q You entered the
A 1931.
Q 1931?
A Yes.
Q I meant 1931; excuse me. Did the Consul give you any money when you
went to see him about your transportation?
The German Consul?
A What time do you mean?
Q When you left the country to go to
A In 1940.
Q In 1941, was it not?
A 1940.
2242
Q Did the Consul give you any money or send
you any money to go over?
A I got $50 for the Consul.
Q Why did he give you $50? To pay part of your transportation?
A Yes.
I didn’t have much money. I just
had—the fare was $265 altogether on the S.S. Exochorda. It was about all the money I had, and I didn’t
have any money to leave my wife.
Q When the German Consul gave you the money,
your trip was to get you into
A To go back to
Q In what direction? Was it via
A Yes.
We arrived in
Q Did you go to the German Consul’s office
in
A Yes.
As soon as we got off the boat in
Q Did you get some more money from the
German Consul in
A No, we didn’t, but we had to stay ten
days in Lisbon before we could get airplane accommodations—a place on an
airplane—and in those ten days the German Consul of the embassy paid our room
and meals in Lisbon.
Q How about when you were in
A No.
In
2243
this letter in a railroad
station, and I got a second-class ticket for
Q Did you live with Max Schnabel,
A Yes, I did.
Q When was that?
A I lived there after I came back with my
wife from
Q Did you there become acquainted with
Hartwig Kleiss?
A No.
I know Kleiss as the chef on the S.S. Manhatten.
Colonel
Royall. I do not know. I have a few questions to ask him. He is nervous; he is not well. I think if we could have a recess for five
minutes, it would help.
The
President. Since we are going to sit
late, I think we might take a recess for ten minutes.
(At this time a short recess was
taken. The following then occurred:)
2244
Colonel
Munson. The witness is reminded that he
is still under oath.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q I think when we recessed I asked you
whether you knew Hartwig Kleiss.
A Yes,
I did know Mr. Kleiss. He was a
chef on the S.S. Manhatten of the United States Lines.
Q What has happened to Kleiss, do you know?
A I don’t know.
Q Do you know Paul Fehse?
A Yes.
Q What was he?
A He was a fish cook on the S.S.
Manhatten.
Q Do you know what has happened to him?
A No, I do not.
Q Were they in the Bumd, or either of them?
A I don’t know that.
Q Did you now Franz Stigler?
A Yes, I know him.
Q Where is he from?
A I don’t know where he was born, but I
have worked with him together in the
Q In
A No; here.
Q You have not seen him in the last year or
two, have you?
A I have not seen him.
2245
Q I think you said that everything in your
statements was true except what you had said about the money belt and two or
three other things of that kind?
A Yes.
Q Otherwise the statement was true?
A Yes, as far as I know.
Q I am reading from your statement, from
the last page, and I ask you if this is true:
“I admit that I came to the
Is
that true so far?
A No, it is not true.
Q Did you say it to the F.B.I.?
A I said it to the F.B.I., because I
couldn’t say to the F.B.I. that I would not go through with it.
Q Then you say, “and might have done so if
the opportunity arose.”
Is
that true?
A No, it is not true.
Q So you lied to the F.B.I. about that
also?
A Yes.
Q Then you say, “but in discussing with Hebert
Haupt the matter in general while in Chicago both of us talked about and felt
that we would not have a bit of a chance to commit any sabotage.”
Is
that true?
A That is true, yes.
Q So the first two phrases of that sentence
are true, but not the last part?
2246
A That’s right.
Colonel
Royall. You said that backwards. You mean the first two phrases are untrue.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q The first two phrases are untrue, but the
last is true, you say?
A Yes, sir.
The
Attorney General: That is all.
REDIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Hermann, I believe you testified that you
did join the Nazi Party?
A Yes, I did.
Q And you did so when you were unable to
get work in this country or were having difficulty in the getting it, or did
you join them before that?
A I joined before. I joined 1937.
Q And after you found difficulty getting
work in this country you sought to go to
A Yes, I did.
Q You were drafted in the Army and you
obeyed orders?
A Yes.
Q Do I understand that you first decided on
the submarine that you could not go through with this and would not do so? Is that right?
A Yes, both before and when I wrote this
letter to my wife.
Q You did not disclose that to Kerling
until you got
2247
on the train?
A Yes, as I was afraid he may turn me over
to an officer on the U-Boat
Q And you did nothing about abandoning the
plan except to talk to Kerling, because you were waiting to see all of your
group; is that right?
A Yes.
We talked about it—we would go all together—not just one—we would go all
together.
Q Now, you were asked about communications
between yourselves, possibly by secret writing.
You were not to communicate any military information, were you, between
yourselves?
A No.
Q Or any facts about anything at all?
A No, never.
Q Merely as a means of seeing each other?
A That’s right.
Colonel
Royall. That is all. No further questions.
RECROSS
EXAMINATION
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Do you mean by that answer to indicate
that you were directed not to communicate any facts between yourselves except
for the purpose of meeting? Were you
directed that?
A No, we were not told that, but we were
told only to use it to tell each other where we would meet on—where we should
be to meet each other.
Q You were told that that was the only
thing that you should communicate to each other?
A Yes, sir.
2248
Q Who told you?
A Only to get in touch with each other.
Q Who told you that?
A Well, I don’t know. I believe it was Lieutenant Kappe.
The
President. Are there any questions by
the Commission? There seem to be
none. The witness is excused. The
Attorney General. That is all.
Colonel
Royall. We will next call the defendant
Werner Thiel.
(Werner Thiel stepped forward)
The
President. It is my duty to inform you
of certain rights as a defendant in this case, Werner Thiel. It is my duty to tell you that you have the
legal right now to do any one of several things, just as you choose. First, if you want to do so, you may be sworn
as a witness and testify under oath in this case, like any other witness; or,
second, if you do not want to be sworn as a witness, you may, without being
sworn, say anything about the case to the Commission which you desire – that
is, make what is called an unsworn statement—or you may, if you wish file a
written statement with the Commission; or, third, you may, if you wish, keep
silent and say nothing at all.
I
will explain these rights to you in order.
If you do take the witness stand and fail to deny or satisfactorily
explain any of the alleged wrongful acts about which you testify at all and
about which any evidence has been presented against you here, such failure on
your part may be commented on to the Commission by the Trial Judge Advocate
when he presents his
2249
argument to the Commission at
the end of the trial, and the Commission may take it into consideration in
determining whether you are guilty or innocent of the offenses.
Do you understand fully all that I have said to you so far?
Mr. Thiel. Yes, sir.
The President. Do I
understand that counsel has consulted with the defendant?
Colonel Royall. We
have consulted with the defendant. He
has indicated his desire to take the stand and testify under oath.
The President.
Knowing these various rights, you are now permitted to take the stand in
your own behalf.
Colonel Munson. The
President stated that he would explain your various rights in order.
Mr. Thiel. Yes, sir.
Colonel
Munson. He informed you as to your
obligations when you took the stand as a witness, and you stated you so
understood?
Mr.
Thiel. Yes.
Colonel
Munson. Hold up your right hand. You swear that the evidence you shall now
give in the case on trial shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr.
Thiel. So help me God.
WERNER
EDWARD THIEL
was called as a witness and
testified as follows:
Questions by Colonel Munson:
Q What is your full name?
2250
A Werner Edward
Thiel.
Q You are one of
the accused in this case?
A Yes.
DIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Werner, where
were you born?
A I was born in
Q And when were
you born?
A 29th
of March, 1907.
Q That makes you
35 years old?
A Yes, sir.
Q Your parents
were Germans?
A Yes.
Q You are a
German citizen?
A That’s right.
Q When did you
first come to the
A In the year
of 1927.
Q How did you
come?
A As a
passenger on the S. S. Cleveland.
Q Did you enter
this country lawfully?
A Yes.
Q Where did you
live when you came to
A I lived in
several cities. First I lived in
Q Where?
A In
Q Then where did
you live?
A Then I lived
in
2251
Q Take your
time. Do not talk too fast. Enunciate
clearly so the Commission can hear you.
A I lived a
short while in
Q How long did
you live in
A Fourteen
years.
Q What was your
occupation?
A I was a tool
and die maker in a machinist place.
Q Where did you
work for the longest period of time? In
what place did you work longest?
A I think
during the depression I couldn’t find no work in my line, and I had to take a
job as a porter and handy man. That was
in
Q How much
education have you had, Werner?
A I went to public
school and served my apprenticeship, and I went to night school.
Q Now, while you
were in the
A I was a
member of the Friends of New Germany from 1933—I believe from the end of 1933
till about the end of 1936, I believe it was.
That society was founded to fight the German boycott at
that time and anti-German propaganda; and later on, when this society became
the American German Volksbund and went into American politics, I thought it was
not right for me as a
2252
German citizen to be a member
of this society and mix into American politics
Q And what did
you do then? Resign from it?
A I just stayed
that way.
Q Now, did you
join any other German organization here?
A No; only in
the year of 1939 I joined the National Socialist Party, as an independent
member, in
Q And after you
got to
A Yes, but I
never took part in any activities. I was
transferred to my local group, and I never took part in any activities.
Q When did you
go back to
A I went back
to
Q On what boat
did you go?
A The Tatuta Maru, a Japanese steamer.
Q How did you
go? By what route?
A Well, first I
took the omnibus from
Q Did you know
anybody on the boat before you got on it?
A Yes. On the boat I met George Dasch.
Q I say, did you
know anybody before you got on the boat?
A No, I didn’t
know anybody.
Q None of your
American friends or friends you had in
2253
A No.
Q Did anyone pay
any part of your passage back to
A The German Consulate,
but I had to sign papers that I was to pay back the money.
Q How much did
he pay?
A I don’t know
how much the fare was. It was the whole fare—I believe it was from
Q Have you ever
paid it back?
A No. Shortly
before I left Germany again I received a letter from the Foreign Office asking
me how much money I had paid back already, and so on, and after a few weeks—in
February, I think—I received a letter from the Foreign Office, which stated
that since Germany became involved in war with the United States, my return
trip was necessary, or something like that, and therefore I did not have to pay
it back.
Q Now, why did
you go back to
A I had not
been home for long and I always wanted to go home. Since 1936 I had saved up some money, but
then I became a partner in a bake shop to a friend of mine in Florida, and the
business went bankrupt, so I lost my money again, and I had to start saving all
over again, so I never had enough money to go back.
Q This was the
first time you had gotten enough money; is that right?
A 1936, yes,
but later on—I believe it was in the year of 1940—I heard, through some
friends, that it would be possible to go back to Germany by the way of Japan
and that the German Consulate would pay the trip if I did sign a paper that
2254
I was willing to pay the
money back again.
Q Now, what did
you do when you got to
A I went home
to see my parents and stayed with them for almost two months.
Q What other
relatives except your parents—close relatives—did you have living in
A I have four
sisters and five brothers—and four brothers.
Q What did you
do after the two months that you stayed with your parents?
A I went to
Q How long did
you work at that job?
A From July
till the first of April, 1942.
Q What happened
to any of your family during the period you were in
A Well, three
of my brothers have been soldiers. One
is in
Q How did that
affect you, Werner, when you learned of one brother being wounded and learned
in March of the other one being killed?
2255
A I felt very
bad. I didn’t have no clear mind for
quite a long while. I always kept on
thinking about my brother.
Q How old was
the one that was killed?
A 31 years.
Q Was he the
nearest boy to you in age?
A No. There is one brother between us, but we two
were especially very close.
This brother of mine went to the Leipzig and Berlin
University, and we used to write quite a lot to each other, and every once in a
while, when I had some money left, I used to send him some money to help him
getting along.
Right after his examination—he graduated with honors about
1940. About Easter, I think, he was
drafted by the Army, and was killed in 1942, in January.
Q Now, Werner,
when did you first hear of this school?
How soon after you learned of your brother’s death and were upset by it?
A It was right
about the time—I didn’t know exactly of my brother’s death already, but his
letters kept on coming back, and this is almost a sure sign that something has
happened.
Q You mean his
letters were returned undelivered?
A Yes,
undelivered, and I thought already that something had happened to him and only
a few days after we received a letter from his captain that he had been killed.
Q Well, now,
what was the first that you learned or heard of this school?
A Well, of this
school, one night I attended a social
2256
meeting in Berlin—social
affair—and there I met George Dasch, whom I previously had known on the Tatuta Maru; and Walter Kappe and
George and I and some other fellows we spoke about general things.
I had seen Kappe once before in
I could not make up my mind—I didn’t know what it was all
about—so later on, in the beginning of next week, I received a letter from
Kappe requesting me to come to 6 Ranke Street; and
there Kappe talked about how nice it is for us fellows who know the United
States to go back to the United States and do something for the Fatherland, and
I did not know what it was, but I agreed to it.
They told me that I had to got to a school some place in
2257
Q Did you agree
at that time to go to the school?
A Yes; I agreed
to go to the school.
Q What did he
tell you about the school and what its purpose was at that time?
A He didn’t say
anything about the purpose; he didn’t say at that time at all what the purpose
was.
Q What did you
think it was when you went there?
A I thought
maybe he meant to go back for the purpose of propaganda or something like that.
Q When did you
first learn just what the school was?
A I think it
was after two or three days, after we got to
Q Had either Dasch
or Kappe told you before this anything further than that your were going to
serve the Fatherland?
A No; not up to
that time.
Q You did attend
the school?
A Yes.
Q And you were
instructed in what, in general?
A I was
instructed in making explosives out of chemicals.
Q For what
purpose were you instructed in that?
What did they tell you you were to do with
them?
A For sabotage
purposes.
Q Were you given
any instructions as to whether or not you should harm anybody or kill anybody?
A No. Everybody always said we were not supposed to
harm anybody, any human being.
Q Did they give
you any reason for telling you that?
A I don’t
recall that they did, not exactly.
2258
Q Were you
instructed to do any spying or getting any military information?
A No; never.
Q Were you asked
to get any kind of information over here and send it back to
A No.
Q Did you study
secret writing?
A Yes, sir.
Q How long did
you study it?
A I think it
was for about two hours or so.
Q What were you
to use the secret writing for?
A Just to
communicate among ourselves.
Q As to where
you would meet?
A Yes.
Q For any other
purpose?
A No, sir; I
didn’t hear of any other purpose.
Q Did you know
anything about any handkerchiefs with addresses on them?
A No.
Q Did you ever
hear of those until you got into this trial?
A Of course I
have heard of it in the trial.
Q Did you ever
hear it before?
A I believe one
of the agents told me, one of the F.B.I. agents, but I am not quite sure on
that.
Q Up to that
time had you ever heard anything about it?
A No.
Q Did you know
of any instructions given the leader of your group, Kerling, as to
communicating with anybody?
2259
A No.
Q What happened,
if anything, Werner, in
A Well, when I
was almost back to my senses again and thought things really over, I didn’t
like the idea of going back to the United States and doing sabotage.
Q You said when
you came to your full senses. You mean,
after you got over the shock of your brother’s death?
A Yes.
Q What time
during the school did you first start to dislike the plan?
A To tell you
the truth, it was in the second week already.
Q Did you say
anything to anybody about it?
A No; I did
not.
Q Why?
A Well, I don’t
know. I didn’t think I dared to say
anything to the others about it or how they felt about it.
Q You were not
the leader of your group, were you?
A No.
Q Who was the
leader?
A Edward
Kerling.
Q Did you follow
his instructions?
A At that time
he didn’t’ give me any instructions.
Q I mean, after
he became the leader and you left.
A Yes. I was supposed to follow his instructions.
Q While you were
in school whose instructions did you follow?
A Lieutenant
Kappe’s.
2260
Q What, if anything,
happened just before you sailed, about the money that was given you?
A We discovered
some of the gold certificates in our money and—I don’t know how I should
explain myself there.
Q Take your
time.
A We told Kappe
about it, that it would be an awful thing to put some gold certificates in the
money, and if we spent it in the
Q What did he
say about that?
A He said, “Oh,
forget about it. It isn’t so bad at
all.” But I think most of them would like
to have gone back right there.
Q Did you have a
story you were going to tell about yourself when you came over here?
A Yes.
Q What was your
story?
A I was
supposed to be William Thomas, born in Chicago but raised in Switzerland, and
came back in 1927 and since then as my story goes, as my regular life story
goes, as my regular life story goes.
Q Who told you
that story to tell—or did you make it up yourself?
A Lieutenant
Kappe told us to make up a story, and I made it up myself.
Q While you were
at the school and before you left, what was your feeling about this plan,
Werner?
A I always
hoped something would come up to prevent me from going back to the
Q But did you
intend if something did not come up
2261
to go ahead with it at that
time?
A After I had
signed the contract and I had been in it, I imagine I simply had to go on.
Q On the
submarine what was your feeling about it?
A To tell you
the truth—
Q That is what I
want you to do.
A I still
didn’t’ like the idea, and the nearer I got to the
Q What was you feeling about it when you
actually came on shore from the submarine?
Tell us as nearly as you can just what you felt and what you intended,
exactly the truth about it.
A When I landed
I was so excited I think I wasn’t able to think about it. so, after we had buried the explosives in the
sand down there in
Q You say you
were hoping that something would happen so you would not have to go through
with it; is that right?
A Yes.
Q Did you
discuss the matter with anybody at all on the submarine of what might happen or
what would happen?
A No. I didn’t discuss it at all to nobody on the
submarine; but back in New York again, the last morning before we were
arrested, Eddie Kerling woke me up and showed me a little line in the Mirror in
which it was stated that the F.B.I. were looking for four men from a submarine
on the Florida coast; and Eddie Kerling told me right away, “Well, I think we
had better forget the whole thing.”
Q When was that
Werner?
2262
A Tuesday
morning.
Q After you
landed?
A Yes.
Q What day did
you land?
A We landed on
Wednesday.
Q When you left
A I went to
Q You landed on
Wednesday, the 24th of June?
A No; I believe
it was the 17th of June.
Q And the
Tuesday you are talking about in
A I guess it
was.
Q You went to
A I went
alone. Before, I had stayed in
Q Who did you
first see of your group after you got to
A Eddie
Kerling.
Q Did you stay
with him from that time until you went to
A Yes; only for
a few hours that I had to go back to my hotel and get my suitcases.
Q When you were
in
A It had always
been told us that we should wait at least two or three months in order to get
used to the country here.
2263
Q Had you or any
other member of your group done anything towards sabotage after you landed and
up to the time you were apprehended or caught by the F.B.I.?
A No; never.
Q Except to bury
the explosives?
A The
explosives.
Q That was a
part of it?
A Yes.
Q Had you or any
of your group done anything about selecting any plants or inspecting any
plants?
A No, sir.
Q Or selecting
any place you were to commit sabotage?
A No.
Q Had that been
discussed at all?
A No.
Q You were with
Kerling up until the day you were caught; is that right?
A Yes.
Q And during
that time had you or Kerling looked for any place to commit sabotage?
A No.
Q Had you
discussed any definite plans of any kind to commit sabotage?
A No.
Q After you read
that in the paper on the 23rd of June, what did you do? What did you and Kerling do?
A Well, I
stayed pretty close to the hotel and ate my meals. In the evening I met a friend of mine.
Q Were you ever
certain whether you would go through with this plan or not, Werner?
2264
A No; I never
was certain at all.
Q That just
about describes your frame of mind the best you can, that you were not
certain? Is that right?
A Yes.
Q On what day
were you picked up by the F.B.I.?
A I don’t know
exactly the date.
Q Do you
remember what day of the week it was?
A I think it
was Tuesday night, late at night, about 11 o’clock.
Q Was that the
same day you had read that notice in the paper?
A Yes. He showed me the paper in the morning and in
the evening I was arrested.
Q Did you make some
statements to the F.B.I. agents?
A Yes.
Q Who had you in
custody when you were first questioned?
A I think there
were several F.B.I. agents who questioned me, and later on there were only two,
Agent Gleason and Agent McKinney, I believe it was.
Q What time of
night did they take you into custody?
A I believe it
was about 11 or 11:30.
Q Did you sleep
any that night?
A No.
Q Why?
A They
questioned me.
Q They would not
let you sleep?
A They talked
to me all night and questioned me.
Q During that
time or at any time did anybody mistreat you?
Tell exactly the facts and no more than the facts
2265
about it, Werner.
A Yes. Mr. Donegan mistreated me.
Q Tell exactly
what happened. Do not exaggerate it in
any way, but tell exactly what happened.
A He took me to
his office, and I don’t know exactly what he asked me, and I didn’t answer, and
he pulled my hair and slapped me.
Q Was anybody
there with you at that time?
A No.
Q What was done
after that?
A Nothing. All the other agents seemed to be very nice.
Q Did you tell
anybody about it at the time?
A The doctor
came in right shortly after and asked me if I had been mistreated.
Q What did you
tell him?
A I told him I
had not.
Q Why?
A I thought there
was no use to tell the doctor that I was mistreated.
Q Why did you
think it was not any use?
A I don’t
know. I can’t answer that question.
Q With that
exception were you treated all right by the F.B.I.?
A Very good.
Q Except for not
being able to sleep, and that one episode?
A Yes.
Q You did not
tell them the whole story at first, did you?
2266
A No; I did
not.
Q Why didn’t
you?
2267
A Well, I
thought I was one of the, really, first to be arrested. I didn’t want to tell the whole story. I thought it would, like you say, be printed
in the papers.
Q Why did you
object to its being printed in the papers?
A I didn’t want
them in
Colonel Royall. I
think that is all I will ask you.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q You say
Donegan slapped you?
A Yes.
Q How many times
did he slap you?
A I couldn’t
say exactly; I think maybe a couple of times.
Q With his open
hand or his closed fist?
A I don’t
recall that. I was quite excited.
Q He pulled your
hair?
A Yes.
Q Did he pull it
pretty hard?
A Yes, he did.
Q He pulled it
hard?
A Not so
awfully hard.
Q Not awfully
hard?
A No.
Q How many times
did he pull your hair?
A I think that he
just pulled it once. I don’t know, I
don’t recall it.
Q Did he just go
up and pull your hair?
2268
A Yes, he
pulled my hair—grabbed my hair and pulled it.
Q What made him
do that?
A I don’t
know. All of a sudden he was quite sore
at me, or something.
Q You did not
tell the doctor, you say, about this?
A No, I didn’t.
Q Whom did you
tell about it? Did you tell anyone?
A I don’t
know. I believe I said to Mr. Rice
that—after the doctor had left again—that I had been mistreated, but I didn’t
see any reason in telling the doctor.
Q Did you tell
Mr. Rice who mistreated you?
A No, I just
told him the gentleman with the gray streak in his hair.
Q Did you tell
Mr. Rice what the gentleman with the gray streak in his hair had done?
A No’ I only
told him he had mistreated me.
Q You said you
were questioned all night?
A I believe it
was Mr. Rice, because there were several agents.
Q Did you tell
the other agents?
A No, I don’t
think so. I thought at some time I have
told Mr. Gleason about it; but now since he has been on the stand, I really
don’t know.
Q You don’t
remember?
A I am not
quite sure whether I did. I believe I
did.
Q What time were
you arrested?
A I think it
was about eleven, eleven-thirty.
Q At night?
2269
A Yes.
Q When did they
begin to question you?
A Right after I
was brought to the office.
Q How long did
they question you?
A They
questioned me until about nine o’clock or nine-thirty, and then two other
agents came in and questioned me till about some time in the evening.
Q You had your
meals to eat?
A I had my
meals, yes.
Q They did not
question you while you were having your meals?
A No, not while
I had my meals.
Q How long would
they question you at a time?
A They kept on
questioning me all day.
Q Well, they
would interrupt while you ate your meals?
A Yes.
Q Would they
interrupt at other times?
A What is that?
Q Would they
interrupt at other times, too?
A Well, every
once in a while for a few minutes, and start all over again and ask me
questions.
Q Did you put
everything you have told us about in that F.B.E. statement? Did you tell them everything?
A No.
Q Why not?
A Because in
that statement I said that I didn’t tell my friend Tony Cramer that I didn’t
come over on the submarine. He is the
one I gave my money belt to. I didn’t
2270
do it at that time because he
had been a very good friend of mine for over 12 years, and I didn’t want to
bring him into trouble on my account. He
even has helped me out sometimes when I was out of a job, and that is why I didn’t
want to bring him into trouble.
Q Did you tell
your friend Tony Cramer you had come over on a submarine?
A Yes.
Q When?
A I met him
twice, I think; I don’t know whether it was the first or second night.
Q Did you tell him
about the sabotage school?
A No. I only told him I went through a course in
Q What kind of
course? Did you tell him?
A I didn’t tell
him that.
Q Did you tell
him what you were going to do in this country?
A No.
Q Did he ask
you?
A I don’t know
exactly if he asked me, but I am sure I didn’t tell him what I was supposed to
do in this country.
Q Did you give
him the money belt?
A Yes.
Q Did you tell
him what was in the belt?
A Well, I told
him there was money in there, but I don’t know how much money was in there,
because I never counted it, and I believe I told him there was about $4,000 in
there, because at that time I thought there was about
2271
$4,000 in it; I wasn’t sure
of it.
Q You asked him
to keep it for you until you could get it?
A I asked him
to keep it for me till I got it back from him again.
Q Did you tell
him when you were going to get it back from him?
A No, not
exactly.
Q Did you tell
him how long he probably would have to keep it?
A No.
Q When did you
join the Nazi Party?
A I joined the
Nazi Party in 1939.
Q Was that
through a suggestion of the German Consul?
A No. At that time I was not quite sure whether I
wanted to stay in the United States or go back to Germany for sure, and I thought,
“Well, in case I go back to Germany for sure, it could not harm me if I were a
member of the Nazi Party,” even though when I came back to Germany, it did not
help me any at all. I had a job, and I
worked 12 hours a day, and I had to work hard, just like any other fellow.
Q Did the
German Consul know that you were joining
the Nazi Party? Did you tell him?
A I made out my
application.
Q To the German
Consul?
A Yes.
Q Did you take
an oath of loyalty to the Nazi Party?
A I don’t know exactly
whether it was an oath or a pledge. I
think it was more or less like a pledge—be loyal to the Party.
2272
Q Loyal to the
Party?
A Yes.
Q You signed it?
A And Hitler,
of course.
Q You signed the
pledge to be loyal to Hitler and the Party?
Did you sign it?
A No, I think I
didn’t sign it. There were several men
in the office, and the Consul said a formula, and we had to repeat it.
Q Yes; with your
hands up?
A Yes.
Q You said “Yes”
at the end of it?
A No. As much
as I recall it, we repeated every word of it.
Q You repeated
each word?
A Yes.
Q That in a
general way was a pledge to be loyal to the Nazi Party and Hitler?
A Yes.
Q When did you
take out your first papers? You did take
out first papers?
A I took out my
first papers in 1927.
Q You did not
follow those up after that, did you?
A No.
Q Do you
remember signing a contract in
A Yes, I do.
Q Whom did you
sign it with? Did Kappe give it to you?
2273
A Yes, Kappe
gave it to me to sign.
Q Did you read
it?
A Yes, I read
it.
Q What did it
say?
A It was mostly
for the welfare of our families, for our own welfare in case we got hurt, or
something.
Q Did it say that
after finishing the school, you would do your best for the Fatherland?
A I don’t
recall that.
Q Did it say
anything about the school?
A It didn’t say
nothing about the school at all.
Q Whom was the
contract with? Between you and who also?
A I really
don’t know. I had to sign my name on the
bottom, and the page was turned below,
and there were some other signatures, but I was not allowed to see those
signatures.
Q Did Kappe tell
you whom the contract was with?
A No, he didn’t
say that.
Q When did you
first see Kappe, by the way? I think you
have said in 1934.
A Either is was
the end of 1934 or 1935.
Q Was that at a
Bund meeting?
A It was at the
meeting of the Friends of New Germany, and he was guest speaker there.
Q Who introduced
you to him there?
A Nobody
introduced me to him at all.
Q Did you talk
to him afterward at all?
A No. I don’t
think I talked to him in
2274
maybe a sentence or two;
because there was a dinner afterward.
But I didn’t talk to him. I may
have said, “How do you do?” or something, but that is all.
Q Was Dasch
there at that time?
A No, I haven’t
seen Dasch till I met him on the Tatuta Maru.
Q You went to a
big meeting of the Bund, did you not, in 1938?
A Yes. There was a meeting in the
Q Kappe was not
there, was he, in 1938?
A No.
Q Was it Dasch,
as I think you said, who first talked to you about the possibility of this
school, without just telling you what it was for?
A Dasch didn’t
talk to me about the school; he only asked me in that saloon if I wanted to do
something for the Fatherland and go back to the
Q That was after
war had been declared with
A Yes, that was
after.
Q So I suppose
you knew it had something to do with the war?
A I didn’t
think of that at that time.
Q You did not
think that your going back to the
A No, but I
mean that evening it didn’t—I didn’t
2275
think of that, because I
had—that evening I didn’t make up my mind.
I never thought much of it again until I received the letter from Kappe.
Q Had you met
Kappe, then, when you received the letter?
A Yes, I had
met him. There was a social meeting of
the Ausland group in Berlin—that is, a meeting where
people—Germans—from foreign countries come together and just have a few glasses
of beer and talk together and renew acquaintances, and so on, and there I saw
Kappe.
Q Just what did
Kappe say to you then?
A He didn’t say
nothing at all. When I saw him, I was
surprised that he wasn’t in
Q He did not say
anything to you then?
A No. I went up to him and told him that I had seen
him in
Q Did he
remember you?
A No, he didn’t
remember me.
Q What else did
he say to you that night?
A At that time
he invited me to his table, and Dash was sitting there too, and we talked over
general things about old times in
Q Did either
Kappe or Dasch at that time talk about doing something for the Fatherland?
A No.
Q When was the
last time you saw Kappe?
A It might have
been the week after.
2276
Q That was as a
result of a letter that he wrote you?
A Yes; and as a
result of that evening, Dasch asked me if I wanted to go back to the
Q Was Dasch
working for Kappe, so far as you knew; at that time?
A I really
didn’t know if he was working for Kappe, but he seemed to be very close to
Kappe.
Q What did Kappe
ask you to do then?
A Kappe asked me
to—told me I had to go to school in
Q Did he say you
had to go?
A Yes. After I told him I agreed, he said, “You will
have to go to school in
Q What did you
agree to?
A To go back to
Q To do what?
A Nothing at all
at that time, because Kappe didn’t tell me what I was supposed to do.
Q You knew it
was something to do with the war, did you not?
A Well, at that
time I thought maybe it meant going over here and doing some kind of
propaganda, or something.
Q Who gave you
that idea?
A Well, I
thought of that myself, because I never dreamed of sabotage.
Q You did not
really know what it was for, though, did you?
A No, not at
that time.
Q But you agreed
at that time to go?
2277
A To go to the
Q Without
knowing what it was for?
A Yes.
Q Why did you
agree?
A I don’t
know. As I said before, I really—well,
he put a question if I want to do something for the Fatherland, and so I
answered in the affirmative.
Q Well, were you
willing at that time to go to
A As I felt
then, how it was put up to me—he talked how nice it was some of us fellows
could do something for
Q By the way, at
that time had you heard the news of your brother’s death?
A A couple of
days after—a few days after. But at that
time his letters came back already with a cross over it.
Q At that time
when you talked to Dasch and Kappe, did you think your brother was dead?
A I was very
much afraid he was, because his letters came—kept coming back with a cross on,
and that mostly means that a soldier got killed.
Q Were you in a
dazed condition then? Did you know what
you were doing?
A I don’t know
exactly; I only kept on thinking about my brothers.
Q You did not really
know what you were doing when you said you agreed to go to
A Well, I would
say I was not quite clear and sure about myself at that time.
2278
Q Were you more
clear in the next three or four days, or were you still in a dazed condition?
A No, I kept on
thinking about it for weeks and weeks.
Q Do you mean
for us to understand that for weeks and weeks you did not know what you were
doing?
Colonel Royall. I
believe we shall object to the repetition.
He has not said he did not know
what he was doing.
The Attorney General.
I asked him what he meant.
Colonel Royall. Yes,
but you asked him three times, and I think that is sufficient.
I object to the question, sir, as being repetitious. He stated he did not know; he was in a sort
of dazed condition, or something to that effect. I do not think the question out to be
repeated, so we object.
The Attorney General.
I have not asked him about the next few weeks. I was going step by step, and I wanted to
find out how long this dazed condition lasted.
The President. The
ruling is that the objection is not sustained.
The Attorney General.
Please read the question.
The Reporter (reading):
“Question. Do you mean for us to understand that for
weeks and weeks you did not know what you were doing?”
The
Witness. Of course, after a couple of
weeks, and so on, I knew exactly what was what; but then when I had been in
school for so long and signed the contract, I couldn’t get
2279
out—drop out of it anymore.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q But for a
couple of weeks you did not know what you were doing? For two weeks?
A Well, I
wouldn’t say exactly that I didn’t know what I was doing. I wouldn’t say that. But I was quite—I was dazed; I wasn’t sure of
myself at all.
Q Do you
remember when they issued to you the uniforms that you were to wear?
A Yes.
Q What kind of
uniforms were they?
A They were
regular war cloth, like soldiers wear when they work.
Q When they were
issued to you, were you told, or at any time were you told, that you were to
wear them so that you would be treated as prisoners of war if you were caught
landing? Do you remember that?
A I don’t
recall that they said it at that time.
At that time they only told us that we had to wear them in order to get
on the submarines so nobody felt suspicious about civilians going on
submarines.
Q Did they every
say to you that you should wear them so that you could be treated as prisoners
of war?
A Yes, later on. I don’t know where Kappe said something like
that in
Q You were
instructed to blow up aluminum plants?
A Yes.
Q And instructed
not to hurt anyone?
2280
A No, not to
blow up aluminum plants but to get production.
Q Did you think
you could blow them up without hurting anyone?
A Well, as they
told us, it could be done, because in order to cripple production in an
aluminum place, all you have to do is do something to a transformer.
Q You thought
you could do this—do this sabotage work—without hurting anyone?
A Well, as they
said, it could be done.
Q Did you think
you could do this sabotage work without hurting anyone?
A Well, I never
was sure whether I really wanted to do any sabotage work.
2281
Q Did the other
seven defendants go to school with you, the defendants who are here in this
courtroom?
A Yes.
Q The three of
them went down to
A Yes.
Q Which three
were they?
A Herbert
Haupt, Hermann Neubauer, and Eddie Kerling.
Q You spoke of
meeting someone on the night of June 23, 1942.
Who was that?
A You mean in
Q I think it was
in
A Yes, a fellow
by the name of Tony Cramer.
Q That is the one
you have spoken of already?
A Yes.
Q You said you
were nervous when you saw the gold certification with the other money?
A Yes. Everybody thought it would be a mean thing to
put in some gold certificates, because as soon as they would be spent in the
Q I think you
testified that Kerling had showed you a newspaper—was it the Mirror?—saying
that some men who had been saboteurs were arrested?
A I believe it
was The Mirror. It was in one of the
columns, only a short sentence.
2282
Q Did you tell
the F.B.I. that?
A No, I did not
tell the F.B.I. that.
Q Was there any
reason for leaving it out?
A I don’t
know. Maybe I never thought of it, and
besides—
Q Besides, what?
A I didn’t want
to tell them exactly that I didn’t like to go ahead with the sabotage work,
because , as I said before, I did not want to leak that out—become known in the
papers.
Q Before you
were apprehended did you make a decision to go to the F.B.I. and report this
whole thing?
A No, I did
not.
Q Now, at the
sabotage school did you and the other boys who were working at the school and
taking the instructions talk over the sabotage plans together sometimes?
A No. Mostly Lieutenant Kappe talked about sabotage
and gave us all the instructions, and a fellow by the name of Reinhold Barth.
Q Had you ever
seen Barth before?
A No.
Q Well, you did
talk it over among yourselves as to what you were going to do, didn’t you?
A No,
no—sometimes we talked about the formulas we had gotten.
Q Now, going
back to the Bund, you went to
A Yes.
Q Did you
organize the local Bund there?
2283
A A few fellows
and I organized the local group of the Friends of New Germany.
Q That came
before the Bund or after the Bund?
A That was
before the German American Volksbund.
Q And you were
the assistant leader of that local?
A Yes. It was only a very small group.
Q I think you said—I
am quoting from your statement—that “In October, 1940, I learned of the
opportunity to return to
Is that Correct?
A Yes.
Q Then you said:
“Regarding my trip back to
You
went there to aid
A No. I was quite sure that if I went over
there during the war that I couldn’t come back to the
Q You mean that
what you said to the F.B.I. is not true—that you went over there to aid
A Well, I think
if I worked in a German factory during the war time that is aiding
2284
Q Well, it is
true that you went over to aid German in its war effort?
A No, that is
not exactly—to see my family and because I knew I could not go back to the
Q Now, is it true
that you went back to
A No, not only
on account of that. Of course, I was
desirous of helping
Q Do you know a
man named Helmut Leiner?
A Yes.
Q Is he a friend
of Kerling?
A He is a
friend of Kerling.
Q Where did you
meet him”
A I met him in
the year of 1940, I believe it was, or 1939, but I met him a few times and then
he took sick. He was a very sick man at
the time I left for
Q Who introduced
you? Did Kerling introduce you?
A No; another
friend of mine, and when Kerling and I came back to New York, Kerling tried to
get in touch with this Helmut Leiner, because he told me had always been a very
good friend of Helmut Leiner, and he asked me to come along to Astoria, Long
Island.
Q When was this?
A It was on the
Sunday when we got back to
Q Did you see
him?
A Yes. Kerling did not want to go to the house him-
2285
self, because he is known by
Leiner’s parents, so I went up there and saw him there sitting on the porch in
front of the house with his father, but at that time I did not know that it was
his father, and I asked him if Helmut Leiner lived there, and he said yes, and
that he was his father, and so I went up with him, and Leiner was sitting on
the porch with his mother and I think his sister and another girl.
Q Did you talk
to him?
A I talked a
short while to the family, and then I told Helmut I would like to take a walk
down the street, and there on the corner Eddie Kerling was waiting, and then
Kerling talked to him most of the time.
Q What did
Kerling say to him?
A Well, we went
to New York together and had supper in the Blue Robin, and Kerling seemed to be
mostly interested in his wife, because he kept on asking questions to Kerling,
how she was.
Q Did Kerling
say anything about your trip?
Colonel Royall. We object.
I do not think he completed his answer.
He may have.
The witness. I did.
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q Did Kerling
say anything about the trip?
A I don’t
recall that he did at the time.
Q Why was it
that Kerling did not want to see his father, did he tell you, or did not want
his father to see him?
A I did not get
the question.
Q Well, Kerling
did not want to be seen in the house; is that right?
2286
A Yes.
Q Why was that?
A I think
because his parents knew that Kerling went back to
Q Why would that
make Kerling object to his seeing him?
Did he tell you?
A No, he didn’t
tell me exactly, but he said he did not want to be seen by his parents.
Q Did you ask
Kerling where you could see your friend Anthony Cramer.?
A Leiner didn’t
know my friend Anthony Cramer.
Q Did you ask
him?
A No. I was sure he didn’t know him, so I only
asked him to go to his previous address and find out whether he still lives
there. That was on
Q Why didn’t you
go yourself?
A Well, it is a
German neighborhood there, and in Berlin we always were told to stay away from
all Germans—we shouldn’t have any connection at all with German people over
here.
Q You mean while
you were doing your sabotage over here you were not to have any connection with
Germans; is that right?
A Well, while
we were over here at all times.
Q So you were
obeying the orders that you got in
A Yes, in a
way, I did.
The Attorney General.
Will you mark this?
2287
(Photograph
referred to was marked P-260.)
Questions by the Attorney General:
Q I am showing
you and exhibit marked P-260 and ask you if you can identify anybody in this
picture. Do you know either of those men
(handing a photograph to the witness)?
A No.
Q Are you sure?
A No.
Q You do not
think either one of them is Leiner?
A Well, one of
the fellows looks just a little bit like him, but I am not quite sure whether
he is.
Q What hotel did
you go to in
A To the Hotel
Commodore.
Q What room did
you have there?
A I believe it
was 908.
Q Now, when you
left
A No. We were supposed to pick out our own name.
Q What name did
you pick out? I think you told us.
A William
Thomas.
Q Did you use
that name in
A Yes.
Q How did you
use it?
A I used it to
register in hotels.
Q You were not
in the German Army at any time, were you?
A No.
Q When you were at
the school were you assigned any
2288
number in the German Army?
A No, I never
was.
Q Were any of
the fellows assigned numbers?
A I don’t know
about that.
Q You do not
know about that. Did you know Zuber?
A Yes.
Q Did he work at
the school?
A He was in the
school with me and the other fellows.
Q Did he go with
either of these groups?
A No, he did
not.
Q Why didn’t he
go?
A He was a
corporal in the German Army, and I believe after the school he went back to the
Army.
Q Well, did he
just say he wanted to go back to the Army?
Is that it?
A Yes. He had been in New York before, and, I don’t
know—he was in the country illegal, I believe he said, and on account of that
he was on Ellis Island for a few months and sent back to Germany, and on account
of that he was afraid to come back to the United States, because he knew that
his fingerprints and his pictures and all this and that, and he told Kappe so,
and I think Kappe agreed that he go back to the Army.
Q That he go
back to the Army?
A Yes.
The Attorney General.
I think that is all.
Colonel Royall. It
will take me just a little while. I will
follow whatever course the Commission prefers.
It is a quarter of 6.
2289
The Attorney General.
How long will it take you?
Colonel Royall. I do
no know; not very long; probably ten minutes.
The President. Well,
we will finish with this witness, if it does not take longer than that.
REDIRECT
EXAMINATION
Questions by Colonel Royall:
Q Werner, I believe
you say you do not know just how much money there was in the belt?
A No, I really
don’t know, because I never counted it.
Q I believe in
one of the statements you said it was $4500?
A Yes, because
I always believed that there was about $4500 in it, and then I think of the
F.B.I. agents said yes, but I never really counted it.
Q As a matter of
fact, you did not know much about the details of this plan, anyway, did
you? You did not know much about how it
was going to work; you were just following orders?
A Yes, I was
just following orders.
Q They asked you
about being an assistant leader of some Bund.
How many members were there in that?
A Well, I think
altogether thirty members or something—not even that—twenty, I think.
Q Was that the
only time you have ever been an assistant leader of anything?
A Yes.
Q You were not
assistant leader even in the plant where you worked, were you?
2290
A No.
Q You were just
an ordinary workman?
A Yes.
Q They talked
about the gold certificates. I believe
they took those out before you came to
A Yes, we took
them out.
Q You did not
bring those with you. You were asked
about signing contracts. Each of you
signed a contract separately?
A Yes.
Q You do not
know what was in the other man’s contract?
A No.
Q He did not
know what was in yours?
A No.
Q You do not
know whether they were alike or not?
A No, I really
don’t know.
Q None of them
know whether they were alike or not?
A No.
Q What does the work
“instigation” mean, Werner, do you know?
A I couldn’t
translate it exactly.
Q You do not
know what it is. How does it happen that
in your F.B.I. statement the word “instigation” appears? You did not use that word, did you?
A No.
Q Have you ever used
it in your life?
A No, I never
did.
Q If that is in
the F.B.I. statement, somebody else
2291
put it there, didn’t he,
Werner?
A Yes.
Q You were asked
about Kerling in
A Yes.
Q Is there
anything else that you want to say about this thing—any facts that you want to
give that I have not asked you about?
A I don’t think
so. I don’t know of anything.
Q Is there any
further information that you can give the F.B.I. or the Attorney General about
any other people whom you knew or who were connected with your plans in any
way? Can you think of any others you can
tell them about?
A There weren’t
any other people in this country connected with that.
Colonel Royall. I
believe that is all
2292
The Attorney General.
I do think of one question that I would like to ask the witness.
RECROSS
EXAMINATION
Q Did the
contract refer to you as a V-man or a man of trust?
A Yes.
The Attorney General.
That is all.
The President. There
is one more question to be asked the witness by the Commission.
EXAMINATION
BY THE COMMISSION
Questions by the President:
Q If you had
told Lieutenant Kappe at this school that you had decided to change your mind and
would not carry out the plan, what do you think would have happened to you?
A I don’t know exactly what would have
happened, but I didn’t dare go back on my word.
I really couldn’t tell you, sir, what would have happened.
Q What do you suppose would have happened?
A They would have interned me for
disobeying orders or something; I don’t know.
The President. There
seem to be no further questions. The
witness is excused, and the Commission will adjourn until 9:30 next Friday
morning.
(Whereupon,
at 5:55 o’clock p. m., the Commission adjourned until Friday, July 24, at 9:30
o’clock a. m.)