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Title. Transcript of Proceedings before the Military Commission to Try Persons Charged with Offenses against the Law of War and the Articles of War, Washington D.C., July 8 to July 31, 1942
Place. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota, 2004
Editors. Joel Samaha, Sam Root, and Paul Sexton, eds.
Transcribers. Students, University of Minnesota, May Session 2003, “Is There a Wartime Exception to the Bill of Rights?”
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Cover page

STENOGRAPHIC TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

Before the

MILITARY COMMISSION TO TRY PERSONS WITH

OFFENSES AGAINST THE LAW OF WAR AND THE

ARTICLES OF WAR

________________

Washington, D.C.

Friday, July 17^th 1942

Session IX

Pages 1353-1626

1352a

CONTENTS

Friday, July 17 1942

Name of Witness	Direct	Cross	Redirect	Recross
Norval D. Wills		1489	1492	1495
Charles F Laumen		1498	1503	1503
W. Willis Fisher	1509			1512
Joseph C. Fellner	1514
By Col. Boyell		1526
By Col. Ristine		1534
John A. Holtzman	1537	1579	1583
D. J. Parsons	1589
Charles H. Stanley	1599
Earl Hirsch	1612

EXHIBITS

Prosecution	For Identification	In Evidence	Read in Record
172 Memo June 18, 1942 about 82, 350, by Dasch	1493	1495	1495
173 Waiver June 23, 1942, Kelly		1510
174 Zipper bag		1511
175 “ “		1511
176 Black Bag		1511
177 Waiver of Custody, Kerling	1515	1515
178 Photograph, money belt		1516
179 Handkerchief	1518	1518
180 “	1518	1518
181 Photograph of writing on Handkerchief	1518	1518
182 Photograph of matches	1520	1520
183 “ “ “	1520	1520
184 Matches		1521
185 Pocketbook		1524
186 Social Security card, Kerling		1524
187 Blank selective registration card		1525
188 Paper removed from wallet	1525	1525
189 Waiver of removal, Kerling		1538
190 Statement of Kerling, June 24		1543	1546
191 Statement of Kerling, June 30, 1942		1560	1567

1352b

EXHIBITS

Prosecution	For Identification	In Evidence	Read In Record
192 to 198 Photographs of articles on Beach in Florida	1589
199 No exhibit
200 to 209		1589
210 Inventory		1592	1592
211 Waiver of Search, Haupt	1603	1604	1604
212 “ “ custody, Haupt	1603	1604	1605
213 “ “ removal, Haupt	1603	1604	1606
214 Billfold	1607
214-A Photograph of Billfold	1607	1608
215 Social Security card Haupt	1608	1611
215-A Photograph of Social Security card	1608
216 Selective Service Registration card, Haupt	1609	1611
216-A Photograph of Selective Service Registration Card	1609
217 Statement, June 23, 1942 Haupt	1615	1615

Defendant’s	For Identification	In Evidence	Read In Record
A Statement of June 19, 1942, Dasch			1355
B-1, B-2 Letter June 22, 1942 Dasch to Pete		1504	1507
B-3 Back of envelope to Burger	1504	1504	1507
B-4 Front of envelope to Burger		1504	1507
C-1 Letter June 19, 1942 Dasch To Pete		1504	1505
C-2 Envelope to Burger		1504	1505

--ooOoo--

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STENOGRAPHIC TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

Before the

MILITARY COMMISSION TO TRY PERSONS WITH

OFFENSES AGAINST THE LAW OF WAR AND THE

ARTICLES OF WAR

_______________

Washington, D. C.

Friday, July 17th, 1942

The Military Commission appointed by the President by order dated July 2, 1942, met, in room 5235 Department of Justice, at 9.30 o’clock a.m., to try for offenses against the Law of War and the Articles of War, the following persons; Ernst Peter Burger, George John Dasch, Herbert Haupt, Heinrich Harm Heinck, Edward John Kerling, Herman Neubauer, Richard Quirin and Werner Thiel.

PRESENT: Members of the Military Commission, as follows:

Major General Frank R. McCoy, President,

Major General Walter S. Grant,

Major General Blanton Winthrop,

Major General Lorenzo D Gasser,

Brigadier General Guy V. Henry,

Brigadier General John T. Lewis,

Brigadier General John T. Kennedy.

As Trial Judge Advocates:

Honorable Francis Biddle,

Attorney General of the United States.

Major General Myron Cramer,

The Judge Advocate General, U.S. Army.

Colonel F. Granville Munson,

Colonel Erwin M. Treusch,

Major William T. Thurman,

Officers of the Judge Advocate General’s Department.

As Provost Marshal:

Brigadier General Albert L. Cox.

As Council for the accused except John Dasch:

Colonel Cassius M. Dowell,

Colonel Kenneth Royall,

Captain William G. Hummel.

As Council for the Accused George Dasch:

Colonel Carl L Ristine.

- - - - -

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PROCEEDINGS

The President. The Commission is open.

Colonel Munson. The full personnel of the Commission, the eight prisoners and the reporter are present. Of the prosecution staff there are absent this morning Major General Cramer, the Judge Advocate General, Colonel Weir, Mr. Oscar Cox and Mr. Rove. The Attorney General also will be absent, with the Commission’s permission, this morning. Of the defense Major Stone is absent, and all the others are present.

May it please the Commission, there are two new officers who will be members of the Guard, to whom I would like to administer the oath of secrecy, Captain Sidney H. Waghestein and First Lieutenant Joseph M. Danish.

Gentlemen, this is the oath of secrecy which I am directed by the Commission to administer to all persons who are present in the court room or who have access to the proceedings of the Commission.

The Commission instructs me also to inform you that in case of violation of this oath you are subject to contempt proceedings and other penal proceedings. In taking the oath, therefore, you understand that?

Captain Wagheistein. Yes, sir

Lieutenant Danish. Yes, sir

Colonel Munson. Raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that you will not divulge the proceedings taken in this trial to anyone outside the court room until released from your obligation by proper authority or required to do so by such proper authority?

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Captain Wagheistein. I do.

Lieutenant Danish. I do.

Lieutenant Meakin. Page 176-A is a diagram of a submarine, with notations on the drawing, signed by George Dasch.

(The reading of the confession of Defendant Dasch was thereupon continued as follows:)

“Q Did this machine have a tripod?

“A No. I do not know whether there were able to attach it above deck or not.

“Q (by Mr. Johnson) How about life boats?

“A No. The only boat they had was the boat they took on the board the ship in Breast to take us to shore. I questioned one of the non-commissioned officers as to whether he knew how to use this boat and why we had it. He said it was given to us in Breast. I wondered what we were taking this kind of or a little rubber board on board for. We had to practice how to operate it.

“(Mr. Dasch then drew Map No.2 of another level of the submarine, numbering the various parts) (The map is attached to the original only)

“Map No 2 is of the first deck below the conning tower. When no one was allowed to be on the deck, we would go there in a group to smoke.

“(Map No. 2 is made up of two concentric circles, the outer circle representing the compartments below the conning tower, and the smaller circle representing the conning tower entrance to the control room. Mr. Dasch explained that when one approached the

1356

conning tower, he had to call out that he was coming up or going down as the case might be.)

“No. 1 on Map 2 is the ladder to the control room

“No. 2--place where the pilot of the boat sat.

“No. 3--seat for the pilot

“No. 4 and No. 5--indicators of speed, revolutions of engines, etc

“No. 6 – chair for the periscope operator.

“No. 7 – Periscope itself.

“No. 8 – Periscope outlet.

“Q For the purpose of straightening out this, does the periscope come up to the rear of the conning towe or to the fore part?

“A The rear. By the periscope was also a loud speaker connected with the torpedo room, the control room and the engine room.”

Page 177-A is a diagram, Map No. 2.

(Continuing reading:)

“The following was dictated by George John Dasch to Pauline Fogg, Federal Bureau of Investigation, June 23, 1942, in the presence of Special Agents Duane L. Traynor, N. D. Wills and Frank Johnstone:

“In reference to Map #3 (The map referred to is attached to the original of this statement only) which shows the seven different compartments, inside of the submarine. In compartment #1 it is always in front of the submarine or in the nose of the submarine,

1357

There are four torpedo tubes, one below the other. There are two torpedoes, the tubes I mean, on top and directly below them are two, making a total of four. The rest of the compartment is an aisle under which are four extra torpedoes built in for extra ammunition. To the left and right of this there are the bunks of the crew. Each bunk serves as rest for two men. You know, when one goes on watch, the other sleeps in it and when another goes on watch the other goes in it. In that front in the compartment #1, there is altogether eight torpedoes, four in the torpedo tubes and four built up in that space between the bunks, two on top of each other. There is a plank over them. I noticed that the have been loading the inside of the torpedoes continuously every two or three days and in order to go that they raised the plank which covered the four extra torpedoes apart in order to get to the torpedoes. They did not have to lift any one of the torpedoes out of their resting place but reached the little door in which the electrical wires were connected to that battery in the torpedo could be done. I asked the torpedo non-commissioned officer how those torpedoes were driven. He said ‘There are not being driven in by compressed air like it had been done previously but by a little electric motor which is again fed by a battery.’ That is why they had to recharge that battery continuously. In order to recharge the torpedoes in the torpedo tubes they had to pull that torpedo out far enough to

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reach the little door where the battery was situated at. And they had in order to do that on the roof of the inside they had two pulleys. Two pulleys on a long conveyer track. It could pull them all the way to the back. That was all done by little chains. That conveyer track had all kinds of holes and each hole had a numeral as well as a letter. Each had a meaning as to the extent of the torpedo was pulled out that they could come either to load the battery or to insert something or direct something or change mechanical device. I asked especially for that. You understand. That is all room #1.

“In compartment #2 which is made up in two different sections the first one beginning from the front is the mess for the non-commissioned officers and else four bunks two of which we were allowed to occupy. Next… The uppers we had. Next to that in compartment, go towards the center or control room we begin with the left side first.. Walking towards the control room, I first passed a small compartment in which was the listening device and also another radio receiving device.”

Right at this point, page 178-A, is another diagram.

(Continuing reading:)

“And when I asked what kind of radio this was I was told it was an old purpose radio device. I was never allowed to go near it. It looked to me like an opening on top. For what purpose that was, I don’t

1359

know. Next to that was the ... which to my way of reasoning was the main radio room. In that was a very large radio built in to the left which was, when I asked that, you could send and receive and then the decoding apparatus. To the right was a radio ... a larger receiving set which I had seen a number of times and also a little a number of smaller radio sets which I asked what purpose they had I was told that would receive – were able to receive and send on shorter distances. While we were close to the coast of – three days out of America and we were arriving above the water, the radio operator called to me – to my attention as I was walking past the main radio room ‘Do you mind listening to this here?’ And I put on the ear phone. And he said ‘watch, you will understand someone talking in English.’ I heard a voice. I said to myself ‘This must be the telephone.’ The boy said to me ‘It is some American station either directly on our wavelength or close by.’ I thought ‘For Christ sakes we could practically establish a wave length they have been using if I was able to understand what they were talking about.’ We were above water then. I was trying to listen to it and so when I came here I could say what I have heard. After I could no hear what this voice was saying, I asked the radio operator ‘Do you change your wave length?’ He didn’t answer me at first and after a while he said ‘We always change out wave lengths.’ I

1360

was also to find they were putting different sets of little round apparatus in that receiving—in that little machine ad I think the—(word sounded something like code). They not only changed the wave length according to secret instructions because one officer always gave the instructions. To my way of reasoning the changing of the set daily and hourly was not only the wave length but also the—(word sounded like code again). Now to the right of this compartment, #2, live the non-commissioned officers quarters where I had a bunk myself, you went first into the officers mess which was at the same time the bunk of the engineer officer. See. I in that little compartment there was a bunch of drawers all under look. You had to … I watched one officer. You had to remove the outside of those little closets which was a wooden door. He had his own keys. Below that was a steel compartment. He opened that steel door and that is in which he put navigation papers and that is where they had that little additional round gadget which he exchanged and put it in that machine. I know that must have been a secret thing. I could not ask any questions. I watched continuously. Next to that as you went down the aisle towards the control room was the compartment of the captain … The bunk of the captain. I very seldom—I didn’t have no chance to look around. It was too dangerous.

“From there you went through a door into a compart-

1361

ment #3, which was the heard of the submarine or the control room. They had about a million gadgets, indicators of speed, revolution of the inches and also two telegraph apparatus for the engines. He said I could always notice the speed we went. Full speed, I think half speed, with both engines, and the slow speed and the little speed. Forward and reverse. One of those telegraphs was for the diesel engine and the other was for the electric engine. Outside of that underneath when we went under the water … the way they had there, two boys which under the instruction of the watch officer guided the boat. There was also an additional periscope but it had to be driven by hand. They could always use that under the water. When alarm sounded which happened everyday for practice, we were told, us four men, were told to step aside to give each man a chance to run his station. The commands I heard them cale all from that control room over the load speaker system. Each man had a station, for instance I seen when I happened to be there one day when the alarm was on in that control room I seen one man turning a wheel and the other fellow was turning something. Everyone had a job. It took about five to six seconds.

1362

When the alarm sounded these four men on the conning tower came down and the d---boat already went downwards. Five seconds we were down and I could hear water come in. Some commands shouting that it was for in which direction it followed. I don’t know. In which procedure those different it followed. I don’t know. While I was in that submarine I was very much interested to find out how deep the boat was able to dive. I was told by one boy ‘This I can’t tell you. This is a secret thing.’ Therefore, from then I was very much interested how deep it would go. They had an indicator, a depth indicator in the control room, also one in compartment #1 right on the left hand side when you came in. I could see that on the day of diving practice we went either 80 meters below and as far as 200 meters. The greatest depth I ever seen on those indicators was 240 meters. When I asked one of the crew members whether the boat could go deeper he said ‘Yes, it could go deeper.’ I said, ‘Then pressure must be awful.’ I could not get out of him the exact depth of the boat was able to go. But he said to me when they were attacked sometime in the spring or last fall in Gibraltar. See, they were bombed. They were at that time 180 meters deep where they went along the coast they wanted to go through Gibraltar and approach the African Coast when they were observed and bombed. And the captain said to me when I asked him about it ‘Well, I was lucky to get

1363

home.’ We ... usually about a minute after the alarm sounded there came a command over the loud speaker system I recognized the voice of the captain where he said ‘A diving for exercise only.’ You understand? ‘Dive for exercise.’ And then while we been underneath the water either 80 or 200 feet they measured something. Every time they had to measure something and I think it was either the water or the air which was needed to put into the torpedo tubes when it was fired out because every time a torpedo went out so much weight went away. Anyway, they were sounding—like measuring water. The crew, when that order came by the engineer officer ‘Sounding’ and they hollered back and then they took the measure and then after that had been done they announced ‘2200 in one compartment, 1800 in two’ or something like it. But the exact figures they quoted I don’t know. They are always practically alike. They did that every day when we took a dive.

1364

“The following was dictated by George John Dasch to Donald Oden, FBI, on June 23, 1942, in the presence of Duane L. Traynor, N. D. Wills, and Frank Johnstone, Special Agents:

“In compartment 3 was also the chart room, where all the exact positions of the submarine were being figured out. There they had also a book where they put in the exact position hour for hour, a log I think, and also the amount of oil they used.

“Now we are leaving Compartment 3 and going to Compartment 4. This compartment is directly – you leave this compartment by going through a steel door. The compartment is lined on both sides with six bunks for non-commissioned officers – corporals and such. Another thing, in this compartment on the floor they also took those soundings.

“From compartment 4 we go into compartment 5, which is the little kitchen. The stove of the kitchen ws electrically heated. In the left corner of the small compartment was the toilet for the crew. The toilet for the officers and non-commissioned officers, which was in compartment 2 – was in the front left corner of Compartment 2. None of the lower non-commissioned officers and the crew were allowed to use that toilet.

“From the kitchen we went into Compartment 6, which housed the two Diesel engines. Each of those Diesel engines stood parallel with each other and were divided by a little gangway, which have 800 horsepower. The engines were built by Grupp. I believe when I put the

1365

question to one of the men what kind of oil they were able to burn, I was told, ‘Any kind of fuel oil, thick oil, even the dirty oil made out of coal.’ I wanted to find out what kind of oil they used, whether this was real oil from the oil wells in Rumania or whether it was oil made, synthetic oil made out of brown coal. And I was told they could use both.

“From compartment 6 you went again through a steel door into compartment 7, in which also parallel line were two electrical engines, which were designated by them as ‘A’ machines. One more thing I want to say—I know as a matter of fact that the bottom of the submarine housed from the head of Compartment 2 all the way to Compartment 5, that included the kitchen, the batteries underneath, and there they had a little roll wagon. I seen one of the crew which belonged to the engine to go there and test them and check them. See? They had lights in there. I figured ‘How the hell was he moving back and forth?’ Then I see he was sitting in a little roll way. The ‘A’ motors were on the bottom of this compartment 7. You could just about see them, and above all were two control panels with all kinds of gadgets. Towards the aft of the boat was one torpedo tube. In front of that torpedo was two additional torpedoes, extra torpedoes. I could not see them. They were well covered with a gangplank. But I seen that they also had one of those pullies. So I reasoned that they had some more torpedoes. I asked that

1366

question and was told they had two or more torpedoes. So I reached the conclusion that the submarine had five torpedo tubes, which contained five torpedoes, and outside of that four extra spare torpedoes in front and in the back, which made a total of eleven torpedoes which the boat was able to carry along. The non-commissioned officer, torpedo man, said to me, ‘Our enemies often wonder how a little submarine could carry that many extra spare torpedoes.’ And he said ‘Just take a look how wonderfully they are being stowed away. Every little inch is being used to the best of our advantage.’

“Q Was there anything else underneath that part?

“A On the sides of all the different—on the sides of every compartment with the exception of Compartment 3, which is the control room. They had lockers for the crew and also where they stored food and different equipment. Understand?

“Q Where was the oil stored?

“A The oil was stored in the bulky affair which started out about on both sides of the submarine from the outside of Compartment 2 back and 5.

“Q On both sides?

“A I show you. (illustrating on drawing)

“(The oil tanks are to be seen on chart 1 under Nos. 1 and 2)

“Dasch: What else do you want to know? About the speed huh?

“Johnstone: Yes, tell us about that

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“A I was told that the submarine could go full speed above the surface about 16 knots an hour. Now that speed was figured in German sea miles which was equivalent—which was larger than the English sea miles, It is 1800 and something meters. That was at full speed. Now at full speed with two engines. I marked that down once. Then at half speed the boat made a speed between 12 and 13 knots; At slow speed the boat made between 9 and 10 knots. At ‘little’ speed, with both engines, the boat made between 5 and 6 knots. Only once did we go ‘little’ speed. That was when we been in the region where the gulf stream when they checked and greased the guns. I know then we send on very little speed ahead. I happened to go into the control room and look what kind of speed we went on. The telegraph said ‘little speed.’ In regards to the speed below the water, I can say the following truthfully. Most of the time that we were under water, we went small speed with the ‘A’ machines underneath the water.’ I was told about 6 knots. That is all I know about the speed underneath the water. But when I asked the Chief Engineer, which was a non-commissioned officer, not the chief engineer, it was the chief machinist. Then I asked him, ‘Can you run the two diesel engines underneath that water,’ he said,

1368

‘No, that is impossible because for Diesel engines you need air.’ I acted dumb; I went further. He thought ‘That is a dumb guy.’ I said, ‘Can you run the ‘A’ engines above the water, which are the electrical engines?’ He said, ‘Yes, we can do that.’ The next question – ‘Can you run one ‘A’ engine say the left one, and the right Diesel engine all above water?’ ‘Yes we do that quite often in order that the other engine will charge the batteries.’ That is how they charge the batteries. One thing is certain, they went always a speed in order to save fuel. They told me that at full speed or at half speed, they would use too much fuel, too much oil. The best speed was slow speed, which was the equivalent to 10 knots, about 10 knots. There they would get the best speed at the lowest fuel consumption. Because I often said, ‘Why don’t you go a little bit faster, you guys?’ I wanted to get this thing over. I was sea sick like a dog. And that’s what I got out of them.

“Q What do you know about this submarine in size in comparison to other submarines?

“A Oh yes, hold it. I asked one of the boys, ‘Is this a large submarine?’ So he told me, ‘No. We have in Germany three different types of submarine–a small one which has between four and five hundred tons, and this type which is the medium type between seven-hundred and fifty and eight-hundred tons; then we have larger submarines which have one-thousand, twelve and even fourteen-hundred tons.’ Another question I asked, in this I was very much interested

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to know, namely, in regards to refueling on high sea. I found out in no time that this was a dangerous question to ask. It was hot! The guy got red in his face and walked away. Now the way I approached this I found a solution. There was one boy in the radio department. I asked him, ‘Have you ever been on another submarine before?’ He said, ‘Sure, I have been on a lot of submarines–a supply boat.’ I said a supply boat? What kind of a boat is that?’ He said a supply boat is big enough to go long distance, very long distance, be on high sea over three months and more, and are able to take a lot of fuel along. If their mission is not so very long, they carry not only fuel for themselves, but they carry fuel for smaller boats and also torpedoes for smaller boats. And the refueling, the reloading would take place on high sea on a spot designated by them. And this order would always come from headquarters in Brest. He knew that. He told me that because he has been a radio man. He gets the orders. Now wait a minute, let me think. Oh yes, I ask him, ‘How long do you usually stay out on high sea with this boat which has 750 tons?’ He said the last trip they went up to Greenland shore where they shot three ships totaling 36,000 tons. I said, ‘How long have you been out?’ He said, ‘Exactly nine or ten weeks.’ I said to him, ‘Nine or ten weeks?’ ‘Have you enough fuel along for nine or ten weeks and food and torpedoes?’

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‘We make contact with refueling boat where we got fuel and food.’

“For awhile I was under the impression that the refueling boats were surface vessels, so I ask him point blank whether they were surface vessels or not. At the beginning he said to me, ‘Have you been on any other vessel but submarine,’ he said he had been on a supply boat. And I said, ‘Supply boat? Jesus, it is not as dangerous as this here. You don’t have to go underneath the water.’ ‘That is not a surface vessel – a submarine, only larger.’ Then I got as much out of him as I have just related now.

“in regards to how long they can go on high sea, and they carry not only fuel for themselves or ammunition for themselves, but also for the others, and that they got in contact at a given position on high sea.

“Dasch: Have you gentlemen got any other questions?

“Johnstone: Did you make any contact with the enemy or German boat en route?

“A All right. In that respect the boys always said, ‘Christ sakes, I hope we are going to shoot something today.’ Every watch said ‘We are going to be the first one to see a steamer.’ Because if the following incident, I know about which route we took across, at least for a long period, for the greatest time or our travel across. One day, I think we been out on high sea about six of seven

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days, when I heard one of the radio boys say, ‘We have sighted a steamer.’

“Traynor: You have already covered that, haven’t you, George? No use to continue on that. How long can the submarine stay below the surface?

“A Now let me see—oh yes, to that question I can only answer truthfully the following—that we have been below the surface from daybreak around six o’clock in the morning, to sunset which was around ten o’clock, continuously under the water without going on the surface. And that was on the first and second days right off the French 0coast. Six in the morning until ten at night. It would be about 16 hours. I said to myself, ‘If they can keep 16 hours under the water, there should be at least in case it is necessary. They should be able to keep underwater, but none of them would ever tell me that. I think it was a secret. I don’t know the men themselves knew it.

“Q How many gallons of fuel could they carry?

“A I couldn’t tell you that either. Hold it.

In regards to fuel, I know their way of measurement it not done by gallons. It is done by cubic meters. I used to hear the Chief Machinist talk to the Chief Engineer, ‘We burned so much during this time--,’ so

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many cubic meters or fractions, you know.

“Q Awhile ago you talked about diving practice—

“A Yes.

“Q Do you know how long it took them to submerge and what distance they traveled during the submerging?

“A That I could only say that it took about I think three to four minutes. I couldn’t tell you it was that long. It all depended on which speed they went down. Sometimes we were going down on a very slight angle. Some other times we went practically on our heads because the dishes, everything moved right in front. They tried out every possible way during this practice.

“Q Did you ever hear anyone say how long it would take for them to be completely submerged?

“A Well I know as a fact—I reason it would take them about two minutes, one to two minutes to go at least 200 meters down at least. That is another thing. In regards to the tactics which the submarine commander had to follow in case of an attack and he was forced to go underneath the water, I got the following remarks out of a guy—that the listening device is the only ear which decided what he would do. Understand? He would know by the listening device whereabouts the enemy or attacker is and according to that he would go either one direction or another.

“It took the U boat only a few seconds after alarm to submerge, to go under the surface of water and then continue to dive further down.

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“Traynor: I don’t know anything more to ask you on these submarines.

“Johnstone: What depth are you when you use your periscope? How far could you extend your periscope?

“A I think seven meters. Now I do not know. I said that question I also asked, ‘How long is your periscope?’ I was told seven meters but that meant from the top all the way down to the bottom of the boat. I do not know whether they could extend it seven meters. I don’t think so. It would have been a very dangerous proposition. I did not watch. I could never go into the control room when they had practice. I could have gone but I just never went. Because periscope to my way of reasoning was about two or three meters or four meters that the boat was underneath the water. And then another thing, it depended on the weather on the surface. If big waves were there, undoubtedly the boat could not—because the periscope had to look always above the waves. Otherwise the waves would cover the sides.

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“The following was dictated by George John Dasch to Rachel W. Bowman, PBT, in the presence of N. D. Wills, Frank Johnstone, and Duane L. Traynor, Special Agents, FBI, June 23 1942.

“Keller is V-man name used by Kerling.

“Q What would he have for a first name?

“A No first name. All V-men would sign their names v and their last name.

“Q Who has charge of all V-men?

“A I cannot tell you, What do you mean?

“Q What office was over whole V-man organization?

“A They have different departments, six different groups of intelligence and we belong to Group No. 2 and the head of the department was a Colonel which was introduced to me as the chief on the night we had the farewell party. The only time I ever saw him.

“Q Any agents in Intelligence 2 would not be known as V-men. Is that right?

“A I think all V intelligence Unit dealt with espionage. The young lady who made the approach for me said this was the headquarters. Two was counter-sabotage three was censorship, four, five and six, I do not know. We could not find out.

“Q Were you in your training instructed to obtain any type of information you could dealing with possible objectives of sabotage?

“A No, sir. As a matter of fact, I am glad you asked that question. As a matter of fact, it was Kerling’s argument when the question of financing this undertaking arose what he needed, to his way of reasoning,

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a lot of money, a lot of money, so that he could use some of it sometime to bribe. And to that argument Lieutenant Kappe said the following, ‘Your business is to do what you are instructed, namely sabotage. The other line of duties is on one business, we have other people for that.’ Is that sufficient? That’s all. So I surmised that undoubtedly the other departments are covering a military espionage, in regards to economical and political sabotage, and evidently all that business or knowledge belongs to this intelligence formed, one through six. These all in that building together because all chose departments are all right in the German High Command Tirpitz which is known under the name of KKW, Tirpitz is the name of the great Admiral in the last war who was responsible for the submarine warfare. German High Command all this departments in that one building, Naval Intelligence also in her different branches.

“Q Did you ever know or meet anyone in the German High Command whose duties dealt with espionage?

“A Yes, sir

“Q Who were they?

“A I met in January, when I sat in the office, Room 1025, with Lieutenant Kappe, I was introduced to one person who was to my way of reasoning, an engineer. He was in civilian clothes and had just returned from Russia. And he told us, the three, Lieutenant Kappe and myself and this man, his experiences from the Russian front. He told us how clever the Russians had undermined the City of Kiev, where they exploded many buildings in

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which divisional headquarters and other branches of the military, were blown up on the air many weeks after the Germans had it occupied. He explained there in which ingenious way the Russians had prepared this work. I could not follow his explanation to a point for the fact that I don’t know nothing about electricity or radio but I gathered that the Russian control that whole setup by radio. He said that when those buildings and sections in Kiev were blown up the Germans drove all the Jewish population of Kiev together and executed 35,000 the number of Jews being educated. I happened to see what he marked down. This number refreshed in my mind a message I received over the radio from a Russian station which I had listened to only a few nights previous to that date where it was claimed from Russia’s side the Germans had executed 30,000 Jews. This intelligence officer said that the Russian Jews were killed or executed by members of the SS. He happened to see with his own eyes that the Jews were banded in groups of 2 and 3 hundred people; had to dig their own graves (big holes); had to walk towards that hole where officers of the SS were shooting them in the back of the head in the neck and kicking them down in the hole. He even laughingly remarked that the trigger finger of the executing officers became tired and they had to be for that reason replaced by another officer. I sat there on my little chair in the corner, my stomach turned. I didn’t know just what to do for a moment. I thought they were the dirtiest bastards on earth. They were just damn bastards,

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any man can do that. He even said another story. He stated the following ‘A dirty old Jewess sat on the road near the dead body of a young Jew woman who happened to be her daughter and she refused to leave the dead body of the daughter and the only way they could get that woman away was shooting her right there in the place.

“Q Do you know the name if this individual?

“A No, I don’t but I was introduced. After this fellow had left, he went to the next room, I said to Lieutenant Kappe. ‘Christ sake this is an awful war and this is an awful way to kill people.’ And he said to me, ‘What kind of a Dutchman are you? We Germans have one thing to kill all the Jews and don’t you go chicken hearted.’ I made a mistake that day. I couldn’t help myself.

“Q Did Lieutenant Kappe, to your way of thinking, have anything to go with V-men who are intelligence officers?

“A You mean the different branches? To my way of reasoning, Lieutenant Kappe has only the supervision of all intelligence men in his department. You understand? Dealing with V-men sent to North America. Because, I know, as a matter of fact, that in the same office was a different officer. His name was Van Hofen. His job was to cover Panama Canal. How do I know that? Sometime—was sometime during January or it was in December, when I sat in the same room, Room 1025, of the German High Command, waiting for Kappe to come back, I happened to go into one of the other rooms. This Van Hofen to whom

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I had been introduced on some other occasion, same into the room where he sat a desk right near to Kappe. He went over some papers and he spoke about generalities. A minute or so later a young tall, lanky German boy came in. I figured him to be the age between 24 and 6. He came in and saluted in typical Nazi fashion and was greeted then by this Van Hofen and asked to set down next to him and I sat in the corner. I seen the following. They talked in a low voice but I seen they were unfolding a map of the Panama Canal. I could not hear exactly what they said although I only been about 4 yards away sitting in the corner. They were talking in very low voices but Van Hofen pointed out to this young man places right long side the Panama Canal. I said to myself, ‘The dirty bastards are even after the Panama Canal.’ That’s all I said to myself. In other words, I know as a matter of fact that this department. Intelligence – 2. send out man in any place where they think it is necessary for this type of attack` That includes Northern Ireland and England because there was an officer also in civilian clothes who was crippled in the French war the year before. He happened to be present at the farewell party in the teagarden. I went over to his table in the course of the night and we spoke about America in general, political situation, military, war, morale, etc. and spoke about scenery and the people and our own experiences there and he said the following, ‘I am sorry that I have never been in America.’ I said to him,

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‘Do you understand English?’ He said, ‘Yes, I do.’ So I right away approached him in English and he replied also in English and he had an English-Irish brogue. Now I said, ‘You have been in Ireland haven’t you?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘In Ireland, Belfast, England, London, and other places. Now this very same night some incident came back into my mind namely as I sat his office was nearby 1025, divided only by a door which was open. Happened to hear him dictating a letter and it always said about names of soldiers, English, prisoners released out of prison camps, but the exact wording I don’t know. But I understood that his part time job was to get Irish boys out of the English army and send them back over to Ireland into England or directly to England for the purpose of doing sabotage work in there.

“Q You say that Lieutenant Kappe also had charge of espionage agents in North America?

“A No, sir. He had only sabotage. Wait a minute—it is also possible that Lieutenant Kappe might have had, also something to do with espionage V-men because I have to recall right away the incident of this fellow Bachmann. When I was called sometime in January to him he introduced me to this man when I came, ‘In due time I’ll tell you why you had to meet the man,’ Kappe said. When I left that office that day, I reasoned down the street ‘May be this guy has nothing to do with the sabotage work. Maybe he is espionage spy.’ Because I know, as a matter of fact. That those two groups which landed last week in the United States were the first two

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groups which were ever sent to the United States and I said to myself, ‘That Kappe had prior to the time, to formulate other groups. Undoubtedly some other work to do, namely, sending espionage guys.’ That is sound reasoning, isn’t it? He is not there merely to suck his thumb. I could not see any definite proof on that. When I sat in his office he gave me an English Newspaper. He had the Times and the London Chronicle I think. I think maybe the son of a bitch left the room and I was being observed in some way merely to test me, They work on anything. Cold reasoning, you have to be careful about everything. So I sat there –

“Q You don’t know anything about any espionage in this country?

“A No, sir.

“Q You don’t know whether they have any espionage men here?

“A I think that Germany has agents of espionage in this country, just as well as I think, I don’t know it, that the United States has men of espionage in Germany because that is part of fightin.

“Q You don’t know of any in this county?

“A No, sir.

“Q Now then, George, back to sabotage schools again. Have you any idea how many schools they intend to run to send sabotage agents over to this country?

“A What do you mean?

“Q How many groups or organizations?

“A When the question arose that outside of

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sabotage work our duty over here at our arrival was also to build a foundation for a larger organization. I merely asked, ‘In other words you intend to send _____?' He said 'Why certainly.’ Members of ____ and to whether they are reliable men in Germany. This friends and boys who had been in American members of the Bund and known to have lived in this country and to their way of reasoning had ability and willingness to come here. I know that Lieutenant Kappe is outside of an officer of the German High Command, also an executive officer or member of the so-called Deutsch Amerikaniche Kameeradschaft (Translated means German-American Friendship Circle). They are to get the whole guys together. This circle met once a month, every first Sunday of the month, In a restaurant called Hanes in Berlin. Kappe told me sometime in January that he had to go to the same Kameeradschaft in Braunenschweig to get hold of these two kids there. And also he made trips to Stuttgart, to Munich and Nerbeue and other places, which gave me to understand that a whole system of those circles were spread all over Germany. Those circles again were closely connected with the Ausland organization of the Nadap. Letter written in there to successful work he was able to get out of the whole German Command Servants and that this would be a reservoir to get all people out. The same kind of organization they form only together under the German-American buy also South America and Germany and also Czechoslovakia and Germany and also Far East, everything. They all are under direct control of Ausland organizations of the Nadap.

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“Q George, did you ever learn anything over there indicating how often they meant to send a group of saboteurs over here?

“A I know to that question that Lieutenant Kappe said the next group will be under the leadership of Dampsy and he will meet us in America around September or October.

“Q Was there anyone coming after that?

“A He said, ‘We contemplate banding together additional groups ‘but they have nothing to do with us neither would they have the same objectives to attack.

“Q How long before they come?

“A This I was not told. But he told me he would be sure the other groups which would follow would get a more thorough training.

“Q How many would be in each group?

“A He also said that although this time the groups were made of four men, the other groups after Dempsy’s group would be only 2 men.

“Q How many were to be in Dempsy’s group?

“A Four men. The last men were there to be 4 men. I know two, Swenson, and tho the other two I don’t know. I also know according to the testimony of Kappe that in that group of four men under leadership of Dempsy one man was in there who is already training of Morse code.

“Q High regard to sabotage schools, George, can you outline for me the program of instruction, the various types of courses, like explosives, firearms training, cover stories or anything of that nature? Do you remember what the various types of instruction were?

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“A The exact way of instructions we received out at Quents were as follows: First, incendiary and use and manufacture. Next fuses, time or direct fuses, igniting fuses by ignition and by chemical. Next, the use and the manufacture of dynamite or high explosives. We were also shown by training how to apply it. We went through the following instructions. In regards to the establishing of a new identity, a short lecture of the existing loss which had in the meantime become such. We were taught how to sing the National Hymn, Stephen Foster’s songs, and bar room songs. In other words, everything was being taught to that we could easily go right back again and wouldn’t give ourselves away because we didn’t act like Americans. The majority of all those little things, that was my idea. I had that put down already on that five page memorandum I gave right in the beginning. I gave them very good ideas right from the beginning. I thought it was a very remarkable job that they entrusted me as a leader and to get me to do that great work months before or six weeks before I met the other boys. I was not even a member of the party.

“Q What other courses were you taught? Anything else you were taught besides use of explosives, etc.?

“A We also learned how to row a big rubber boat and also those little kayak. Just about all.

“Q Did you have any training in jujitsu?

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“A No.

“Q Any training in unarmed combat?

“A No, sir, merely self defense but also we learned how to use a pistol.

“Q With regard to this man Swenson.

“A His right name is Joseph Schmidt. He lived in Canada as a Canadian citizen for a period of I think ever since 1926. He immigrated there directly from Germany.

“Q How old is he?

“A The boy is 32 years old.

“Q How tall?

“A Six feet maybe six feet one inch.

“Q Weight?

“A 175 pounds.

“Q Color of hair?

“A He has blond hair.

“Q Color of eyes?

“A Blue eyes.

“Q Any scars or marks?

“A No scars, he has a fair complexion.

“Q Any peculiarities?

“A He is a slow-moving typical Swede.

“Q Any parents?

“A Yes, when he came to me and was sent by Kappe to me in Der Kaukaus, it was the first week of April, shortly before Easter. When I met this boy the first time he said that he is short of money, short of clothes and he was in his willingness to go home to

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see his parents. So when Kappe came while the boy was still there, I have told Kappe ‘Listen it would be a shame to use this boy right away. Why don’t you send him home over Easter and he needs clothes and money?’ Now the fact that in Germany we ration, we have clothes cards it was difficult to give him additional clothes without taking use of the ration card. Therefore, Lieutenant Kappe told him that Kappe and myself would meet him on some subway station it was in the northwest part of Berlin, where now I do not know. Next morning at 8:30 I met Kappe in Der Kaukaus early and then we went early there to meet the boy. He brought us to a building, two story building which was guarded. We went into that building after Kappe showed his credentials. All three of us. We had to go to an office and show the credentials again and had to speak to the manager in there. From there we went on the ground floor of that building. And I seen rows and rows of suits and overcoats and raincoats all of them used clothes. In the other floor they had hats and underwear and luggage everything you could possibly mention. Downstairs, in the cellar, they had shoes. When I went around with those fellows I merely trailed them. I looked at those clothes and seen they had different marks from America, Sweden, Germany, Czechoslovakia all used clothes. The same way with hats and all other things, suitcases all of different makes, not a typical German suitcase. Recognize German suitcase any place all made the same.

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When we left that building I concluded the following reasoning; First why is that building guarded so much; Two, why all the secrecy about what contains the building, three, why the different labels, sizes and belongings of people, where are those people. I said to myself, ‘This is the hideout of the personal belongings of poor people the dirty Nazi slaughtered, where nothing soul in the world knows the whereabouts of those poor individuals.’

“Q Where about are the parents of Swenson?

“A Swenson’s parents live in Germany, father, mother and also sisters nearby in the Cologne mountain region, west of Cologne about 60 miles west of Cologne. I think to be exact between Giessen and Cologne on the railroad line. He is the son of a farmer.

“Q What was he doing in Canada?

“A In Canada according to his story, he was a fur trapper. He ran a hauling business, first with horses and then after a few weeks he had one or two of trucks. He was trucking fish which were caught in the lakes be fishermen, and he was an employee of a fish wholesale business and he bought them down from the north to Edmonton where they were shipped all over United States and Canada.

“Q Does he have any relatives around Canada?

“A I don’t know.

“Q Any relations in the United States?

“A That I do not know. He has never been previously in the United States. The only time he been

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in the United States was he when he undertook his flight from Canada through the United States to Mexico.

“Q How long had he lived in Canada?

“A I think from 1926 up until spring, 1940. At that time when we came back from Aaken Dessau on our way back to Berlin there. It happened to be Friday, May 15, we came to the railroad station in Dessau only to find out that we had two hours time to make the next express train to Berlin. The majority of boys went into the City of Dessau and I had this fellow Swenson or the Swede as we called him, with me. I said ‘Let those fellows walk’ because on a number of occasions he said that ‘I don’t like this whole setup around here, it is too Nazi.’ We sat in a park on a park bench right opposite station. We spoke about international politics which led up to the war, etc., and there he made the further statement it is his since belief that if the Germans are unable to line up with the rest of the world, they will be destroyed. I was practically tempted to help him with that way of reasoning but somehow I held back because I figured in due time I wanted to get him close to me but I know I already told him too much, enough evidence to doubt sincerity or of the person which I represented while I had been in Germany. When we got to Lorient and the boy was not going to make the trip on the submarine because he had contracted a venereal disease, and I knew on the same night I came to Paris

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and I had pangs of conscience, I figured may be the guy will now start talking what I told him. I many times thought about that while I was lying on my bunk in submarine behind the curtain. I had a feeling that maybe in the meantime they have investigated me and evidence compiled who I was, that Captain would see the order.

“Q Does Swenson have a wife in Canada?

“A That I could not tell you. I didn’t ask him.

“Q Do you know how long he had his first hauling businees?

“A I don’t know. I only know he said.

“Q What did he do in the off-season?

“A Trapping during the off-season. While we been in Quentz I have told Lieutenant Kappe that this fellow Swenson would fit in the picture of our group beautifully. I said that his boy is going to be the farmer who is going to run the farm which will not only be our hideout but also the place where the explosives going to be hid. In order to make this way of reasoning stick better and at the same time show my sincerity of my plant I told to Swenson, ‘You, boy, learn the formula good boy because you are going to be the man that your job.’

“Q How about Billy Dempsy? Do you have any idea who he knows in this country?

“A No, sir.

“Q Any organization to which he belongs?

“A Billy Dempsy or Billy Smith has not been a

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member of the National Socialist Party.

“Q Has he ever belong to any organization in this country?

“A This I do not know. In Germany he is a member of the Hunting Society.

“Q You don’t recall the name of anyone he ever fought?

“A He mentioned a number of fights he had. I do not remember the names but undoubtedly just like any golfer who just shot a 72……

“Q Where did he fight?

“A Chicago and St. Louis.

“Q On ant car, were other famous fighters found?

“A No. Billy Smith, his fighting name was billed from St. Louis I think.

“Q Do you know whether he was fighting up until the time he went over to Germany?

“A I could not tell you that. “

The following was dictated to Lucretia McDowell, Federal Bureau of Investigation, in the presence of Special Agents Duane L. Traynor, Charles Appel, N.D. Wills and Frank Johnstone on June 23, 1942:

“(Mr. Traynor addressed the following remarks to Mr, Appel, ‘Charlie, George has just a considerable training in a German school. One of the things they taught him was how to communicate by means of secret ink. George wasn’t a particularly apt student in as much as he didn’t pay particular attention to the means of writing. He has stated he learned three methods of

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writing – with water, aspirin, and a laxative. He also learned another method whereby he used an instrument that looked like a match but didn’t ignite, the method being to write with the match and if you didn’t write too heavily then treat with some chemical, it could be placed under some kind of light and the writing brought out. I thought that you possibly might talk to him about that matter’)

“Q How were you to develop what was written to you?

“A By taking a piece of stick with cotton and dip in the ammonia and go right over it.

“Q What color was it when it came out?

“A Red.

“Q Did you write with any chemicals that you developed that same way yourself?

“A We made it ourselves too, in a little glasses given to us with the pills and plain water. I think it was the one with the – I am getting tired thinking so much – any way the first lesson was with aspirin tablets, using 1/3 and this we had to take in that little glass jar. We had to grind it up – it was a little straight up glass jar – and then we added water or something else, but I think water, and stirred it up. Then we took a toothpick, put a very fine end of cotton on it, very fine and turned it around and twisted it around in our hands to a fine point, and then we

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were to dip it into the solution and start writing in print. This you could put on paper, any paper.

“Q That was colorless?

“A Yes.

“Q How could you write on paper without writing over it?

“A This is the letter on which I would write a letter. (Taking a piece of paper) I was to take letter this way (horizontal) have this piece of paper always on the glass – this is the main thing – make a little mark on the side and put another piece of paper underneath and dip into that solution and start printing. The only thing I could see was usually the last trace. Sometimes I had to put my finger there so I could tell where to start. Another thing is that cotton, always left just the finest piece of it – made writing hard. The paper slipped too, and the place where we were taught we did not have the right kind of glass or right kind of equipment. All you needed you used in one thing. The first was aspirin, a second was ordinary water, and with that we had to treat paper. We also had to move that on a hard surface like glass. It was best to clean it with another piece o paper then start just with water.

“Q Did you treat it all after you written?

“A Yes. Then I think we had to take the whole thing through water.

“Q When you used the aspirin did you take it

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through water?

“A I could not tell you. We did three different devices.

“Q You would take it through water when you used pyrimidine (?)?

“A Yes. That is the third one I was trying to think of. Is that what you take to move the bowels?

(Yes)

That is correct. We only had to use 1/3 or ½.

“Q How did that come?

“A Always in pills.

“Q White pills?

“A I don’t know whether they had any marks on them or not. They are always bought at a drugstore but you have trouble buying them.

“Q Did they give you any instructions as to any other way of developing?

“A We had to take this piece of stick and cotton. Put into ammonia, and go right over it. As a mater of fact we did it there.

“Q How long did you spend learning that?

“A Two Hours one morning and then again out at Quentz, and one morning in the laboratory at the Terman High Command, one morning under the supervision of this young lady, and on Thursday of second day before we left. We did it Friday again--that is all. I didn’t pay much attention to that because I didn’t figure I would use it. We figured this was

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nothing new, neither to you nor anyone else. When I questioned the Professor as to whether it would stand any chemical test, he said no.

“Q What kind of paper were you told to use?

“A We could use it on paper or cloth. The paper we should use possibly was very thin paper on a hard surface.

“Q Did you do anything to the paper first?

“A No. Only for water script, then we had to rub it first.

“Q Did you have more than one kind of paper? Were you told to select one kind of paper?

“A The city Berlin, for instance, has outside of a wonderful subway system, they have street cars and buses. Last summer, for instance, the bus system and the street cars, the service was much better than during the winter. The buses fell out practically all, at least my section, until all service taken away. The same with street cars—they used to announce from the city administration that this and that street car would be taken off and out of service and this bus line. But the subway ran pretty regular. They ran until about two o’clock in the morning at night. And if you ever were caught in a section of Berlin in the night and you wanted to go home, it might have been ten or fifteen miles, you had to depend only on your good pair of shoes. I walked one night four hour.

“Johnstone: You didn’t have good shoes over there.

“Dasch: I was fortunate. I had still American shoes, Regal shoes. I had three pairs of shoes.

“Traynor: Did you touch on this entertainment?

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“A Yes, I like to say that also. That’s very interesting. Now the main entertainment section in Berlin is around Eurfurstendann. There are a great number of moving pictures there, as well as stage theaters and clip joints. Those places today are jammed to the gulls. At eleven-thirty at night it is finished, everything closes. The reason why those places are hammed is again proven by the very fact that first of all everyone must work; so, therefore, everyone earns. But for the fact that they cannot spend what they earn, because they can’t buy anything, nothing; no food, no clothes, no furniture, rugs, no radio--nothing to be bought in anything. They have money to burn and that is where they spend it. You go to any one of those places, you buy beer. It is pretty reasonable beer, but they sell you cocktail for two or three marks a shot. Don’t ask what’s in the cocktail! It tastes like hell. I don’t know what is in them. What a graft! I happened to go only recently in a bar where they had entertainment and those so-called ‘bar girls.’ I sat all by myself at one end of the bar and the bar girl was talking or keeping conversation with a man next to me. She said, ‘I have to be very careful because down there sits the boss.’ I looked down there and according to her description I recognized a man who was the boss. He was a big, swarthy dark faced fellow, a type I recall as being a typical bootlegger of arch criminal we had during prohibition. He had on his left finger a diamond.

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I don’t know if it was a real one. If it was a real diamond, it was at least five carats. Something came right back into my mind. I thought this Hitler with his system wanted to root out all that evil. But it certainly was there. He was permitting it. In one side of their propaganda, they say they are trying their best to make a master race out of Germany, in other words, something with good ethics – ethical – understand? ‘Jesus,’ I said to myself, ‘I have been in many clip joints all over the world, in Panama, and this is the worst I ever hit and I went to many.’

“Traynor: Now then, George, let’s talk about what you might call military information.

“Dasch: Pardon me please. I would like to say one more thing in regard to moving pictures. Although I never went to one single moving picture, the only place I went to see I seen news reels, I seen from the outside the type of picture which was shown and also by hearsay I came in contact with. It was made clear in my mind that ninety-nine per cent of all those pictures had nothing else but one-hundred per cent propaganda. Every picture was made for influencing and poisoning the minds of the watchers into the direction they wanted them to be. That is why I would never go in one.

“Traynor: What were you going to say, Frank”

“Johnstone: I thought maybe to finish up the living conditions over there, you might want to cover health and doctors and hospitals. I understand there

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is an acute shortage of doctors.

“Dasch: That is right. In regards to social conditions, I can state that the Germans have always had a wonderful system for the benefit of the people for a number of years they had sick benefits and health insurance – laws, compulsory, over 30 years already. Understand? And this certainly bears out to a great advantage now just during this war. But the doctors ... . . I never went to a doctor but I was told, ‘You can’t go and see a doctor because they are overburdened.’ Those which are there, and another thing if he gives you a prescription, you can’t have it filled in any drugstore, because they haven’t got the material to fill it with. Thanks to goodness I wasn’t sick! I never had to go to a doctor or drugstore. I seen the people standing in front of drugstores to try to get some tooth paste. The place was jammed. Another thing, a great majority of stores, maybe they be drugstores or restaurants, or any place of business, you could read a sign outside – closed either for the reason of shortage of goods or because they went to the army, drafted.

“Johnstone: Where were the doctors?

“A I had not finished. The people are sent to doctors. They have a right according to their insurance they can go to doctor. There are hardly any doctors, they can hardly go to hospitals because they are all used for soldiers. It is quite a jamup, and when they wish to treat themselves at home, they don’t

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get the medicine. They can’t get their prescriptions filled. I spoke about that to my mother. She said, ‘Please don’t touch this subject. I know the poor women around here, they are sick and what not. The women help as much as they can. After all, they are Christian women.’

“Johnstone: Are all children delivered by midwives?

“A I don’t know. I never had a child.

“Q If you are seriously sick and require an operation, can you get into the hospital?

“A This I couldn’t answer. Because thanks to goodness I never came in that position. Again, I take it for granted that there is also--wait a minute--what did my landlady tell me? In regards to this question, I happened to listen to a conversation of a few ladies who visited my landlady practically every day, because it was a headquarters for the women’s Nazi organization. They said only very severe cases are being admitted to hospitals. Understand? Then the question came again that there are enough private hospitals still in the city of Berlin but they were very expensive and that the rich again could go into these clinics which the poor people didn’t have a chance.

“Q Wasn’t a good percentage of the medical profession in Germany Jewish or wasn’t it before the war?

“A Now, I want to tell you ... I know as little of the conditions in regards to the medical profession

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of Germany as you do because I haven’t been there. The time I paid a visit in 1930 or 1923, I had other things to look for. I merely could reason according to the propaganda they dished out, the Nazis dished out, there must have been a very, very large amount. But I think especially the sons of the middle classes, they all studied for something and I been in Heidelberg, which is a world known as a center of medical science, and I seen there more crippled soldiers waling around than I ever seen in my life. Every soldier was either on crutches or in a wheel chair and without an arm or some part was missing. So I said to myself, ‘This must be the headquarters of the clinic where all ... and another thing I seen, they were using a method of curing soldiers, and that is they pack their arms or legs in plaster paris. I happened to think and remember the story of that little American country doctor, I think he was either in Minnesota or Iowa, the man who has actually advocated that kind of cure. It is called ‘dry cure.’ I think they copy that right from American doctor and that was tried out already in the Spanish Revolution War in 1936.

“Traynor: I would like to talk next on military information generally. Have you any idea the number of men under arms in Germany?

“A This question I ask many times, not only myself, but other people. I reasoned that Germany today has at least an army between eight and ten

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million men under color.

“Q How did you reason that?

“A Because I took the statistics. I read the statistics of the manpower of Germany and I subtracted from this manpower of military age the people which I seen employed, and I came to the conclusion that they must have at least between eight and ten million men today under arms. Because you hardly see any able-bodied men walking the streets of Berlin or anywhere, and if you happen to see one, seven out of ten able-bodied men which walk the streets of Berlin, wear the Hitler sign or they are Party members. I always thought when I come here I am going to work on that. Tell them, ‘Why don’t you open your eyes and see who is walking around, who is not fighting?’ I seen that over and over. Look at Korling. He is a young boy. He was going around with a shoulder badge. That is the way you could see all around, especially like myself, where I worked in an agency of the government. Understand? The very fact that all the factories and big industries today are employing foreign workers gave me a reason to figure that the workers had to be taken out and are today serving in the army. Outside of this regular army of soldiers, there is an additional millions of so-called labor battalions, grouped in two major divisions. One is the Todt Organization and the other is under the designation of Sperle or Sperling Organization. There I seen men at the age

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of 60 and 65 in uniform. I seen in Germany and I seen them in Lorient, and I seen them every place I went. Old men wearing uniforms made from goods which was taken away from the Belgians and the French and the Polish Army – that light goods, just like the English, the same kind of color like the English uniform, not khaki. Olive, that’s it. And they all wear a band around here, a red band with the Hitler cross and it says underneath, ‘Organization Todt.’

“They have a belt but they don’t carry arms, but those men of the Organization Todt which work in Russia or went to Russia, I seen they had pistols and firearms. Outside of that they have the labor battalions. The labor battalions are all the young boys, I believe from the age of 17 and 18, are being drafted. Now this system of labor battalions is highly interesting. I happened to speak to a little boy. I had invited him to my room. He just had come back from Russia. He come back to be drafted into the Army. He was just a little over 18. I asked him, ‘What form of instruction did you receive?’ There he explained to me enough for me to surmise that there they get the first instruction of military discipline, squad movements, how to handle a rifle and get the principle instruction of military life. In other words, they are already seventy-five per cent soldiers when they leave this labor battalion and get their soldier uniform on. The only thing that they

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have to learn yet is how to handle the specific new weapons. That is all. They are all finished. And before the youth goes to those battalions, they belong to Hitler Youth Organizations. I have seen it with my own eyes that boys of the age of 14 and 15, they could not have been any older, were walking around with rifles on their backs, going out to the rifle ranges. They have a method of strictly military subordination. It is the goal of every young German boy to have the honor while he is in the Hitler Youth to carry a little dagger. Any boy, who according to their way of teaching makes an excellent mark, carries a dagger. Kids eight and ten years of age carry a dagger.

“I also seen girls marching in groups and I been on a bicycle following them very slowly. Also the girls were military ... . were regimented. They sang songs, those poor girls, military songs. And I got off my bicycle and walked along with them and I said to myself, ‘For Christ sakes, they certainly know how to march. They have commenced just like and army.’ And a little later when we were outside of the town, they dispersed and there I noticed all at once became women again, themselves; they spoke like little girls speak.

“In regards to air raid warden, fire protection, the women take drills in fire protection in gas war, in lifesaving, in everything you can imagine. It is all organized. Nothing is forgotten, I tell you:

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used to sit there and study, why those Nazis have not forgotten the dot on the ‘i’. They think of everything. They have to to very best men for training, in the propaganda, in politics, in industry, in the church even. When I went into the church, even the priest there, instead of teaching the words of God, expressed the gospel of propaganda.

“Q George, what’s the beginning ages they are drafting boys into the army?

“A They are drafted by the age of 18, drafted into the army.

“Q What is the oldest age group drafted at the present time?

“A That depends on whether the man has seen military service before. The German army has a great number of men which seen service in the last army. In other words, a way over 50 years of age. Those men are usually instructors behind the front and in the garrisons.

“Q Do they draft all men of certain age? That is to say 45?

“A Oh much above that.

“Q What is the top age limit?

“A Now in the top limit I cannot recollect exactly, but one year ago when I go into Berlin to the High Command in June, fist day or second day of June, 1941, when I have told them that I came to Germany for the purpose of doing my duty and that I wished to volunteer into the army. The officer at that time, I forget his name, he said, ‘You are crazy.

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You couldn’t be a soldier for two weeks and you will sit high and dry. You have lived a free life so long. You just could not live up to the regimentation and to this discipline.’

“Q How old though is the top limit?

“A There he told me another thing. ‘You could not be used for any front action,’ because the age limit was 1907 at that time. I think to my best of recollection, today they went back to 1904, because they had such great losses in Russia. You must not forget that the Germans use only the best for the front in regards to troops, equipment, and everything, the best. And if they think they need 50,000 men, they be sure before they attack they have 100,000 men there. And if they think they need 50,000 rounds of ammunition, they are sure to have 100,000. That is why they succeed. Everything to the smallest detail it is worked out – in regards to transportation, in regards to supply for the army, for the air corps, food, everything also is all figured. Each man has his job and all the men are being directed by the best possible expert in his line. There is not such a thing today that a mechanic serves with an outfit which has nothing to do with mechanism, the infantry are ninety per cent farmers, mechanics are usually in the navy, in the tank corps and in the engineers, and that is the way. A bricklayer, for instance, or a carpenter is sure to be sent in the engineers. Understand? Because he knows something about bridges, highways, etc.

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Everything is figured out to the point.

“Q Well, George, you say the draft age is way above 45. What would you say it is at the present time? Do you know of anybody that is going in when they are 55?

“A That I do not know. I know they have soldiers that old. They have been soldiers already two years, three years, because they had served before.

“Q Did they volunteer, or were they drafted?

“A They have posters all over and practically every day they advertise in the papers, ‘Join voluntarily the SS,’ and that for the SS I think the age limit is 18 to 35 years of age. And all those which have served previously in another outfit cannot join the SS. They go out to their old outfit. There (meaning the SS) they take only the best. I have seen those SS troops and I said to myself, ‘Christ sakes, they certainly picked the cream of the crop.’ There is also an undercurrent of dissatisfaction between the SS troops and the regular army. In that respect, that little Peter Burger knows the dirt, the inside, and he knows the facts.

“Q On this drafting business, George, do they grant deferments to able-bodied men for such things as wives or dependents?

“A Wait a minute. No, that don’t mean a damned thing.

“Q If you have children, does that mean anything?

“A No, it don’t mean a thing ... I don’t know

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whether it holds true. Hitler decreed sometime ago that, for instance, a family has three sons. Two of the sons have died. The last remaining son has a right to ask to be behind the line, no on the front. This is in the line with the so-called superior race idea. He wants to keep that….he doesn’t want that family to die out.

“Q From your observations over there, what materials, what necessary materials would you say you were short of?

“A Now, let’s go! They have no fine metals like copper, lead, zinc; they have no rubber, no cotton, no wool, petroleum, what a shortage! Steel they have plenty. They have more steel than everything else. Light metal they have plenty. Take it from me. Everything is light metal today, because that has proven to be easier for transport, all that is figured in. It is lighter and quicker, etc. All that figures. But another thing which they are short of is stuff to harden steel, like alloy steel, tungsten, and manganese. But in that respect I know I heard this engineer, this chemical engineer, speak on this subject in the I.G. Farbin factory in Bitterfeld. He said to us that that is to the ingenius of the German mind, chemists as well as engineer. We thought of that long time before. We are able to today to reduce those

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shortages by manufacturing of synthetic materials, such as rubber, cellulose, and everything else. The basic elements which they have plenty of is iron, coal, hard as well as soft, and wood they get out of Russia now. Another thing which they have plenty and that is salts. By that I mean salt peter and related salts, chemical salts, nitrates and salt. They make practically everything out of that. The whole war industry is today under the government control.

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“Q (Wills) What about fabrics:

“A They haven’t got that. They are short of that. That is why the civilian market is actually naked on that. There is nothing made. They make that wooden stuff. The clothes are made out of wood. You make something and it falls apart. Oh what dirty crap! Everything is made out of paper practically, the shopping bags and everything else you can imagine, everything made out of paper. No shortage of paper. Well they have enough pulp, they get it from Finland and Russia.

“Q Do they have leather?

“A No leather. They are short on leather. You cannot have any shoes repaired with leather soles. Again they come to the artificial leather. See?

“Q How do you get pulp out of _____

“A Why there is more in the place that they have so far occupied, there is more wood than the whole United States. Three countries—timber—by christ after we left Minsk, way over on the other side of Minsk, forests, timber, left and right on every station. I don’t know how many cubit feet or cubic meters you might call it, but I seen more wood, and I thought of that one day, when they went into Russia. Christ sakes, they are getting ahold of all that stuff. Another thing which helped them to overcome their shortage. First of all they had stabled long before the war the necessary raw materials to carry a war, and another thing when they went into Holland, Belgium, France, they stole everything they could lay their hands on. In that respect, I wish to make the following statement what I observed when I been

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on the train from Berlin to Paris. I noticed from the freight yard that there are a great number of open cars—with what were they filled? Scrap iron, metals of any kind being requisitioned out of France, in other words, going back to the system of 1918 which I had the opportunity to study because I been employed at that time with an agency in France whose duty it was to take everything away from the French--mattresses, the bells on the church, the monuments, any fine metal they can get. First they started in the so-called free countries. And then they go back home. Oh yes, wait a minute. When I was in Germany, especially this last winter, they had well-organized collections, organized in that respect that the Hitler Youth, girls and boys, or the women’s organizations of the Party took part in collecting everything—papers, rags, old metal, rubber, everything. They just cleaned every corner out. I reasoned to myself, ‘My dear man, Mr. Hitler, you certainly never reasoned in 1939 when you started this war that it would take this long. I like to see your war efforts in another year when you have nothing to take out of corners no more.’

“Another thing which I seen, he is building, along side the railroads I traveled, he is building factory after factory, and those factories are all well hidden in woods and forests. But one thing I seen and I was glad of it. It took them a damned long time to building the factories because they haven’t got the material or the workers.

“Q Was the situation worse when you left then

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it was at the time you arrived?

“A Why certainly, it gets worse every day in every respect, in regards to food, clothing, you can’t hardly buy anything which has to be made in a factory. Every smallest factory is today in the business of manufacturing war materials in one way or the other.

“Q Is there a noticeable difference in the shortage of raw materials?

“A Why certainly, it is quite simple. The fact that you can’t buy nothing else must give the answer right there. The little bit they have they put everything in manufacture of war materials. They are frank. They have to admit it in their way of propaganda to induce people to put their scrap together. We need it, the army needs it, they say. We need it to win the war. At the same time it is open admission that they are short.

“Q Do you think they are drawing on their resources greatly?

“A Yes, but I still think they still have goods yet. Because they stole so much in France and Belgium and Holland—those countries which had plenty of goods which was already short of Germany or which was stored away in order to prepare for this war, that was still on the open market that they get in those countries. As a matter of fact, it was for me a very interesting thing to read when I been still in the United State sin 1940, I think in January, 1943, I read in the New York Times in the finial section of the paper a report giving out by the Department of Commerce of the United

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States which showed that Russia was the biggest cotton buyer in the year 1940, and also the biggest buyer of copper and oil and other necessary raw materials needed to carry a war. I looked on the other side and studied…what is Russia—it was he proven to me that Russia is next to the United States the leading oil as well as cotton producing country in the world, that they actually had enough to compete on the world market. So I said, ‘Why are they buying? They must not buy it for them, to build up the war industry or perhaps they are buying it for Hitler. That is why I was very much on the alert when we went through Russia—to look on how much loaded trains are going to Germany. And I wish to state the morning when we got into Minsk it was daybreak at six o’clock after we had left Moscow. I seen one train loaded next to the other coming out of Russia going to Germany. When we left Byolostock, near the Polish border, we could not find an open track to go through because all the tracks were loaded, overloaded, with goods going into Germany. So we had to go around by way and went into Germany’s new border in Malkanei. ‘That is an awful thing,’ I said to myself, ‘Christ sakes, why should they sell the scraps and the necessary materials to other countries so that they in turn could use it against the democratic worlds?’ Understand? I though that this was a crime. I could not find a solution for it.

“The following was dictated by George John Dasch to Pauline Fogg, Federal Bureau of Investigation, June 24, 1942, in the presence of Special Agents Duane L Trayner, N.D. Wills, and Frank Johnstone:

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“(Messrs. Coffey and Conrad of the Technical Laboratory of the FBI asked the following questions.)

“Q We are interested in how the submarine communicates with the flotilla, with the base, and with the shore in the side both by radio or supersonics or whatever other methods they may have.

“A In answering that opening you have given me, I wish to say one thing first. I know as a matter of fact that they keep in contact with their main station back in Brest and at the same time keep steadily in contact with their flotilla and other submarines on high sea. As to the question how they do it and apparatus they use I am at a loss to state. The fact that American ... The act that I am not an engineer and know very little about telegraphy and radio there is where I am at a loss.

“Q Could you tell us what you observed?

“A I can only repeat only what I have said before now that they had two rooms. In one room they had a number of receiving and sending sets, short wave radios. All the equipment .. They also had apparatus in there with which they must have received messages because the boy at the watch was marking it down with letters f, g, h and so on and on. By hand on a sheet of paper. Yes, that’s it. Thereafter he was reading it off and playing a machine which looked like a little typewriter and on top of there while he pushed the button I don’t know whether the same letters came back or others because I was not close enough to see whether he was

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merely repeating the letters he had read and written down and this in turn operated a little typewriter which wrote the message in German script. Immediately without code books.

“Q That was to be delivered to the Command?

“A That was written in a big black book that every officer even down tot he helmsman with the rank of First Sergeant had to read and sign what they read.

“Q Were they on the surface?

“A I noticed that they kept busy … were busy because I was asked to refrain from going into the radio room during the time we had been under the water for sometime. So I reasoned that they were receiving this message on water by radio. I was called by one of the radio men to try and understand the message. The word what was said while listening and it was in the English language and I heard an American speak in a very blurred voice. I said ‘I am sorry I cannot understand what he said.’ But he said that they were interfering with our wave length. I said ‘This sounds to me like the Reich (?) phone. We were above the water.

“Q He was just listening to that conversation because it was interfering with the frequency?

“A No. He was listening to his own short wave length and that interfered somehow and he thought he knew I was able to understand English maybe it was something in it.

“Q His message came by dot and dash?

“A I don’t know. I didn’t hear it at anytime.

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First of all at the beginning I think it was the 3^rd or 4^th day I was told ‘You cannot come in here.’ I had a three fold reason for wanting to go in there. I think the 8^th or 9^th day I went to the Captain and I said ‘Listen, Captain, I would like to receive the permission from you to go in that radio room and use the radio receiving set.’ The reason I advanced to him was I wanted to listen to the American long wave radio length in order that I should listen to the latest announcement in regards to beaches and any railroad transportations and anything like that which we had to know when we landed and he fell for it hook line and sinker. That dumb German. He said ‘When we get nearer to the shore if I wanted to go there it was all right.’

“Q Those messages were coming from Brest?

“A Those messages wherever they came from, I don’t know. I asked the Captain ‘I wonder where the other submarine is and when do you think they are going to land?’ The submarine I mean which had left the starting point L’Orient exactly two knots before us and he told me ‘Well I got in contact with them today. They are only 200 miles away from us.’ I then asked him a few days later ‘Did you hear anything from the other fellows?’ He said, ‘No.’ He even told me we are able to land sooner than they.

“Q Were there other submarines in the flotilla?

“A That question I cannot answer directly or correctly either because nothing of that was ever revealed to me. Any questions I put directly or indirectly was not answered. I got the following ... One fellow said to me that received a message from the submarine which was under the

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water and couldn’t raise because they couldn’t pump their tanks out. I asked myself how could they have received it. They must have used supersonics that is the way because sound travels under water even quicker than above water because one of those machines here is devised to catch that.

“Q Did you ever see them taking messages on the other machine in the other room?

“A No. All I know about that is what I heard, I see, and I put many questions but I had to be careful whom I put the question to. First of all one boy who worked in that radio room he was also the mess man of the officers and I ate with the officers everyday. Sometimes I alternated with the other boys. We had four men on the table and one officer. Some time I alternated and that is how I got close tot hat one boy who worked in the radio room. See. I was friendly to him. First of all I got out of him that there is such a thing as a splasher. I wanted to make that sure. Furthermore that boy also told me about the message they received from the other submarine.

“Q At what point was that message received?

“A I think it was the second …I think it was we had been about 400 or 450 or 500 miles out of the coast of America. He only said that message was received and said ‘Well I think there is another guy going home.’ They couldn’t help him. I know as a matter of fact I never read any one of those reports but perhaps one officer sat here and I sat there and I could not very

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well go over and read it by I seen that a number of messages and many of them with red pencil marks and he signed them. One boy which also worked in the radio room had to write one of a list of those reports with a typewriter. Otherwise in the book they put it down in pencil –printed it in. I seen the boy in that one little room where the listening device is, I think it was where he wrote. While I was next door talking to the other boy who was on duty at the time he came and he read that thing aloud and there I noticed the following. They have report for instance from a submarine—each submarine has a short number such as SF—they were designated—‘Small convoy degree so and so sighted. Attacked.’ In other words they also gave the exact position where it went. They related it to each other so that they could have a concentrated flow of attack. See?

“Q One submarine would relay it to the other? Is that it?

“A It is the same way on the second or last day or day before. I was also told by the Captain that we are making 14 knots which was next to high speed, full speed. I felt the ship was going faster and was sitting down stairs. I stood below the bridge so in that--in the conning tower right below that room smoking and I asked the boy who was directing the direction of the boat with the steering apparatus and I seen the speed 14 knots and I said ‘How fast are we going?’ He said ‘We are going to try to shoot a 22,000 ton steamer who has left Boston to Halifax or from Halifax to Boston.’

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I seen the Captain an hour later and said, ‘We are going some speed.’ And he said ‘There is another reason we are trying to make the steamer.’ I said ‘How can you do that?’ He said ‘That steamer must have over a speed of 20 knots faster that we can run. If I happened to be ahead of his course and got into his course I could lay low and wait until he comes. If I happen to be too late the only chance we had would be to say ‘Sorry we can’t shoot you!’ Undoubtedly I reasoned then he had orders to run after that. Understand. In other words I said ‘Where do you get that message from. From a submarine? Some submarine must have told him so or perhaps somebody in America or in Halifax brings that message to them.’ That was the reason, I said to myself.

“Q Did they catch that boat?

“A No sir!

“Q Was there any hint on that boat that they got messages from America on shipping?

“A No, but one thing I found out. Again when I opened the question and this time to one of the radio boys I said ‘Did you hear anything about the other submarine?’ He said ‘No, but ...’ And he asked how the English language ... . (He went on to say what question was asked of him) He said ‘I just wondered how the others were going to land. There are two more besides you, two more groups I mean.’ He said you know there are two more besides you are going to land. I knew for the first time that outside of us there were two submarines making a landing. I walked away and figured ‘Where is the

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third one.’ I said maybe perhaps the Naval Intelligence officer at L’Orient was not there merely to introduce Kappe to the Naval officials. Why would he come all the way from Berlin to introduce Kappe? He had a mission and his mission was to send his boat to America from L’Orient. That is why he knew the transaction or the transaction of taking the men on the boats so well. We landed and outside of that a third boat landed which was sent by the German High Command. I said to myself ‘What kind of mission can they have?’ Then I went back to Svenson or Joseph Schmidt which was his German name. He said to me ... He related to me way back in Germany when I asked him how he came here and into the hands of the Intelligence – 2. He said ‘I been in this outfit in Japan and I was approached in Japan.’ After this was found out they didn’t have no use for this boy. He was supposed to be sent from Japan into the United States. And there they decided to send this boy back to Germany and directed him to the German High Command. I recollected that he was asked to learn hot to operate code and he didn’t want to do that. When he expressed is desire to get going as quick as possible when he was sent from this office into the German High Command the Navy Department overtook Kappe. And here undoubtedly Kappe must have been called up over the phone that a man was being sent to him.

“Q Did any of his men have radio training?

“A No, sir, two of the men back in New York were supposed to receive radio training and when I opened the question why they were assigned to my group and go with-

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out that, Lieutenant Kappe said, ‘In the instructions of the Naval High Command.’ They didn’t like it.

“Q George, our job here is to find that radio stuff, you know. Is there anything in your experience which would be helpful to Mr. Conrad and myself in finding radios in this country talking ... . . (Asked by Mr. Coffey)

“A No, sir. What I can help you is to relate what I found out through Kappe. When he told me that a third group is coming which would be supplied with a man who knows how to operate ... that in other words in April or May when he told me that I said ‘How is it to be done?’ He said ‘They will carry along a special built radio set into this country and they would be built into an automobile with an aerial which can be extended very high above the automobile and that car would drive to some spot and send the message and get out of the neighborhood.

“Q How would you men get in touch with that group?

“A That has been covered before, I think.

“Q Did Kappe or any of the rest indicate to you that they already have in this country some radio people?

“A We were the very first ones to be sent to this country on this specific mission---Sabotage.

“Q You were completely out of touch with anyone over here or anyone on the submarine as far as communicating by radio?

“A I though ... I could tell you what type of radios I seen in that submarine. Do you understand?

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To that extent I can just about give you a picture of what it looks from outside. One . . the apparatus had a number of gadgets but I seen that the meter chart was little and in front of it was a lens. What you say, lens. Yes, that’s it.

“Q How about the transmitter--- the sending equipment?

“A To that I can only refer to the questioning I have put to the boy ‘What’s that?’ He said to me ‘This is a receiving as well as a transmitting set for short range.’ At the same time it was an amplifier for the short wave set.

“Q In this room that was used primarily underwater would they send out or just listen?

“A There was only one man in there at the time and he was merely operating the machine and also the light was lit and there he went slowly around ... He had earphones on and I happened to put on an extra pair. He was listening for sounds for ships. As a matter of fact when he would hear something he announced with a loud voice and some of the officers went in and listened. When he told me after ... the boy repeated in regards to the fishing trawler, he told me they had gone that away from us.

“Q When this submarine was under water did they ever send messages?

“A I don’t know. When we were underneath the water we were told to remain stationary. No one was allowed to you know and to be really frank the air is so foul whatever it is--- you feel tired and sleepy all

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the time. I never slept so much in my life as I did in that submarine. The reasons he told me definitely that the small set opposite was a receiver and a sender but I surmised that this one is that secret gadget where they received that whatever it was. It was all connected up with that machine there and the little typewriter.

“Q By secret gadget you mean the cipher machine?

“A Yes. They had a battery of round wheels.

“Q Did they have a key book?

“A This battery of those round wheels they had a number of them and one officer was in charge of them and they were looked up. See, so I said to myself ‘That is the thing. They are not only changing their secret wave lengths but they are changing their codes ad this little gadget deciphers the codes. I could not go there and have it all explained. It was highly secret.

“Q You mentioned also short range radio. You mean the same by that was we do short wave radio?

“A No. It was a radio set in the way you by .. In the way you buy it in the store, but just like an amateur compact radio set, metal cabinet and he said ‘With that we can receive and send for only 200 miles’ but he did measure …. (Didn’t finish sentence.)

“Q They measure this frequency sometimes in terms of meters or kilocycles?

“A No sir! I was looking for that. I was even trying hard to understand what those boys said there so that I could just about come here and say ‘That was said’ so you could trace it. So then you could know their wave length. Whatever they call it. That much I know from

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the radio preparation I received at the foreign office. If you would take one formula apart from the other I would say ‘I just don’t know it.’ I figured you people know a long time what they are studying over there. After all I had to save space, in my brain, you know.

“Q On the outside of the submarine they had to have some sort of wire or antenna ...

“A I watched that closely. They had first of all a steel aerial which was a fishpole type and I asked how they could put that up ... I mean how far they could put that up and he said ‘5 or 6 or 7 meters.’ From the bottom of the boat to the conning tower it was 6 meters, I figured. I don’t know whether it was inside the submarine when it went down. I got that when I find out how far I can raise the periscope and the periscope was just about the same size as the antenna on the same level with the coning tower but when we went on surface it was out about maybe four yards but behind there from the conning tower--- from the rear part of the conning tower extending form the both sides of this conning tower they had electrical wires. See. And it was I figured insulated so I figured ‘This is also an aerial or maybe a sander or what it is I don’t know.’ Too bad I didn’t possess the ... your knowledge of radio. I could have put questions to them and I could have gotten the answers out of them by asking questions without raising superstition. I tried to put that to the best of my knowledge.

“Q Is there anything else you can think of which would interest us too?

“A I don’t know. My mind is all upside down.

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I cannot help you think. I can only answer your questions.

“Q On the radio they changed the coils?

“A You mean those round gadgets? I have never seen that but I seen that long lean Dutchman officer he compared them. He is in taking them out of that for ... well, what you say, he is not taking them out for nothing I merely sat there. When he came back he had another one in his hand. They looked alike to me. He could have changed them. The antenna could extend six or seven meters. The depth of the submarine from the conning tower I was told was 7 meters.

“Q Did you see the fishpole in the air when the submarine went underwater?

“A No sir. Only when we were up. That is when I seen it was thinner on top, you know. Now I am figure ... . Now I am figuring from one isolater to the other. I did see two to two and one half meters on each side. Two and one half meters on both sides hooked up on both sides and connected with heavy wire steel wire from the end of the coning tower clear back.

“Q Did you see anything that looked the shape of a flashlight ... ?

“A No. When we left the harbor at L’Orient, while we stood up on top of the deck between 9 o’clock the night they gave a signal up there. And there stood one of the German sailors with lights. The Captain gave him orders what to say.”

(The Attorney General at this point entered the court room.)

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“In reference to Page 26, wherein is set out the method of payment of my salary under the sub-contract with the German High Command, I wish to add the following facts:

“This contract, which I signed under the name of George J. Dasch, calls for the monthly payment of six hundred marks. The contract stipulates that two hundred marks of this money shall be paid to my parents, John Dasch, Speyer on the Rhine, Kreutstor Street No. 3. The remaining balance of four hundred marks shall be deposited to my account in the Deutsche Bank in Berlin. Kerling was also to receive six hundred marks, but I do not know under what arrangements.

“I reasoned at that time, that my poor parents should at least have some benefit out of this money while they are still alive. For myself I was sure that when I returned, if I ever returned to Germany, that money was worthless anyway, because an inflation must be reckoned with.

(Signed) “Geo. J. Dasch”

1489

(At this point the Attorney General, Mr. Cox, and Mr. Rowe entered the room.)

The President. Proceed, please. It is now 12:13. We will adjourn at 12:30.

The Attorney General. We are now going to recall two agents which the defendants wish to have a chance to cross-examine, gentlemen, further, before going into the second group.

The President. Do I understand that there is already an agent supposed to be on the stand during the reading of this confession?

Colonel Ristine. Yes, your Honor, he is being cross-examined.

The President. And that is the one who is being re-called?

Colonel Ristine. Yes.

Lieutenant Meakin. This witness has already been sworn to secrecy.

Colonel Munson. Mr. Wills, you understand you are still under oath?

Mr. Wills. Yes, sir.

Colonel Ristine. Shall I proceed?

The President. Yes.

Norval D. Wills

was recalled as a witness for the prosecution and, having been previously duly sworn, testified further as follows:

CROSS EXAMINATION--RESUMED

Questions by Colonel Ristine:

Q Mr. Wills, did you have any occasion to spend any

1490

night with Mr. Dasch at the Mayflower Hotel?

A Yes, sir, I did.

Q Do you recall the first night that you spent with him?

A That was Sunday, June the 21^st, 1948.

Q On that occasion did he show you anything in his room?

A I do not recall that he showed me anything particularly that night.

Q Well, did you spend any other night with him?

A Yes, sir, I did.

Q What night.

A I spent the nights of June the 22^nd, June the 23^rd and June the 24^th, 1942.

Q When was the first time that he showed you anything particularly in his room there, if you recall?

A I do not have a recollection of any particular night that he showed me something.

Q Well, did he show you a briefcase with some money in it?

A Yes, he did show me a briefcase up in his room, yes, sir.

Q And what was in it?

A There was some envelopes.

Q Anything else?

A I do not recall that the envelopes were opened at that time.

Q Well, he told you what was in it, didn’t he?

A He told me what was in it, yes.

1491

Q Will you tell the Commission what it was?

A He said there was money in those envelopes.

Q Did he tell you how much?

A I do not recall that he told me the amount that was in it. Each envelope had a figure on it and each envelope was supposed to contain the amount hat the figure represented.

Q Did you see the envelopes and the amounts on the envelopes?

A Yes, sir, I did.

Q Could you give the Commission an idea of about how much was contained in that briefcase?

A It was my recollection that there was three Manilla envelopes. One of them had the amount of twenty-two thousand three hundred and fifty. The other two had the amount of thirty thousand each written on them.

Q Was there some writing on any of those envelopes in Dasch’s hand?

A He said that he put that amount on there himself.

Q Well, were there any other writings on any envelope in the briefcase in his handwriting?

A Yes, sir, there was.

Q And was that writing on the envelope or what was it on?

A That writing was on hotel stationary. I do not recall the hotel name.

Q Could you tell us or do you recall what it was that was written on there?

A In substance I think that I can recall it.

Q Would you tell the Commission, please?

1492

A It said that this was the money that had been turned over to him by the German High Command.

Q Anything else?

A There was something else on there but I just don’t recall it. There were about four of five lines, as I recall, written on that piece of stationary.

Q Would it refresh your recollection if I asked you if it was stated on there that he had accepted it for the purpose of using it in the fight against the ruling powers of Germany, or in substance to that effect?

A I believe it had the word “propaganda,” “to be used for propaganda purposes.” I believe that refreshes my recollection.

Q As to propaganda purposes, you understood from the interrogation that you participated in that he decided to come to this country and broadcast propaga11nda back to Germany to fight the ruling powers, didn’t you?

A That is what he said.

Q And your recollection is that that is also a part of what was written on the envelope?

A Yes, sir, that is my recollection.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q Who wrote it? Did he tell you who wrote it?

A He told met that he wrote that number on the stationary.

Q Stationary of the hotel?

A Yes, sir.

Q When was it written on it, did he tell you?

A No, sir, I do not recall that he told me when it

1493

was written.

Q Then he simply wrote on some stationary of a hotel after he had arrived and—well, after he had been apprehended or before?

A As I recall, this incident occurred on the night of June 24, the night before we left for New York.

Q That was when it was written?

A Now, I do not know when it was written.

Q You do not know when it was written?

A No, sir.

Q You do not recall the hotel that the letterhead bore?

A It was either the Mayflower or the Governor Clinton. I am inclined to think that it was the Governor Clinton.

Q Did you mean either the Mayflower in Washington or the Governor Clinton in New York?

A Yes, sir, the Governor Clinton Hotel in New York or the Mayflower Hotel in Washington,

The Attorney General. I will have this document marked for identification P-172.

(The document referred to by the

witness was thereupon marked

P-172 for identification.)

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q Is this the writing that he showed you?

A Yes, sir.

Q Just read it to the Commission.

A On the stationary of the Hotel Governor Clinton New York City: “June the 18^th, 1942. Content $$82,350. Money from German Gov.” I cannot make out the name of it. “For”

1494

something. Whether it is “their”--there are two words here I can’t make out. “For their purpose” it appears to be, “but to be used to fight them Nazis. George J. Dasch alias George J. Davis, alias Franz Posterious.”

Q And what is the date of that?

A That is June the 18^th, 1942.

Q Was that in the envelope?

A It was in this envelope.

Q Was the envelope sealed?

A The envelope was not sealed.

Q And he took this out of the envelope and showed it to you?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did he say anything about it?

A At that time he just said that ha had that in the--- to the best of my recollection in that particular--- no, that was in the brief bag. He said that he had that note in there on the evening the money was found. That is to the best of my recollection, sir.

Q So that on June 18^th he had written on this piece of paper to be used in the event the money was found?

A Yes.

Q Is that what he said to you?

A That is my recollection of the explanation of that notation in the brief bag.

The President. Am I to understand that this is now in evidence?

The Attorney General. I have not offered it, but the witness has read it, though. It is the same thing.

1495

Colonel Ristine. We would like to have it offered in evidence.

The Attorney General. There is no objection.

Colonel Ristine. And I think those two words he was a little doubtful about I will read.

The President. If there is no objection it may be received.

A Member. Read the two words.

The Attorney General. We will show it to the Commission.

Colonel Ristine. “Money from German Government for their purpose but to be used to fight them Nazis.”

The Attorney General. That looks to be correct. Is that all?

Colonel Royall. No cross-examination by the other defendants.

The President. Any questions by the Commission? That document is in evidence, completely so. I think it would be well to have it numbered.

The Attorney General. It has been numbered, Mr. President. It has been numbered 172 and offered in evidence.

(The document above referred to and

marked for identification P-172 was

thereupon received in evidence.)

RECROSS EXAMINATION

Questions by Colonel Ristine:

Q Mr. Wills, did you see the briefcase which you have related contained the money the first night you spent with Mr. Dasch in his room?

A The first night, no, sir, I did not see that the

1496

first night.

Q Did you see the brief case?

A No, sir, I did not.

Q Who spent the night with him preceding the first night you were there?

A I do not know, sir.

Q You do not know who was with him there?

A No, sir, I do not.

Q Was there any other agent with you the nights that you spent with him?

A Yes, sir, there were.

Q More than one of you spent the nights with him each night?

A Yes, sir, there were.

Q Who else was there with you, besides yourself?

A Well, with me as Special Agent F.G. Johnstone, and there were other agents there. On each particular night I do not recall the names of all of them, but I believe Special Agents George E. Davis, W.A. Stigler, M.A. Taylor, D.A. Hruska, and there was an O’Connell or a McDonald, and there possibly were one or two others that I do not recall.

Colonel Ristine. I think that is all, gentlemen.

The President. If there are no further questions the witness will be excused.

The Attorney General. You are excused, Mr. Wills.

(The witness left the stand.)

The Attorney General. Do you want to take up another witness now?

1497

The President. No, I think, if there is no objection from either side, we will adjourn now. Is there any expression from either side as to the time of reconvening? Otherwise we will adjourn for one hour, if that is agreeable.

The Attorney General. Yes, sir.

The President. 1:30, gentlemen.

(At 12:30 o’clock p.m., an adjournment was taken to 1:30 o’clock p.m. of the same day.)

1498

AFTER RECESS

(The Commission reconvened at 1:30 o’clock p.m., upon the expiration of the recess.)

The President. The Commission is open.

Colonel Munson. The personnel of the Commission, the eight defendants, and the reporter are present as at the close of the previous session.

Of the staff of the prosecution, the Attorney General and Mr. Rowe are absent this afternoon, as also are The Judge Advocate General, Colonel Weir, and Major Thurman.

Mr Cox. I understand that Colonel Royall would like to have Agent Lanman recalled for further cross-examination.

Colonel Royall. That is correct. That was the understanding.

Colonel Munson. Mr. Lanman.

(Mr. Lanman entered the hearing room.)

Colonel Munson. Mr. Lanman, you, having been sworn, are reminded that you are still under oath.

Mr. Lanman. Yes, sir.

(At this point the Judge Advocate General and Colonel Weir entered the hearing room.)

CHARLES F. LANMAN

was recalled as a witness and, having been previously duly sworn, testified further as follows:

Colonel Royall. As in the case of the previous cross-examination of this witness, it is only on behalf of the defendant Burger.

1499

CROSS EXAMINATION--- RESUMED

Questions by Colonel Royall:

Q Mr. Lanman, I believe on your previous examination you stated that the defendant Burger told you freely and frankly the information which is contained in his statement; is that correct?

A Yes, sir, I believe so. I think I stated that before.

Q Do you recall whether or not the defendant Burger was placed immediately under arrest or whether that was made clear to him?

A At the time he was brought to the office, he was not advised of anything in connection with his being taken into custody at the time we brought him to the office.

Q When was he brought to the office? How shortly after he went to his room?

A Very shortly; not over a few minutes or a half hour, I should say, at best.

Q Do you recall when he was first advised that he was being placed under arrest?

A I can’t recall exactly when it was, sir. No, the exact time I cannot recall.

Q Do you remember whether it was that day sometime or whether it was the next day?

A No, it wasn’t that day.

Q You do not know just how many days elapsed after he was taken into custody before he was advised that he was placed under arrest?

A No, offhand I cannot say.

1500

Q Do you know who might know that information?

A No, I don’t.

Q I know you are trying to give me your best recollection.

A My best recollection.

Q Were there two or three days, do you think, that elapsed in there?

A Why, no; I believe it was sooner than that.

Q All right, sir. Now, Mr. Lanman, do you recall that in your conversation with the defendant Burger he stated that while he was in Germany he had had a conversation with Lieutenant Kappe as to what would happen to him if he successfully carried out the plan that Lieutenant Kappe had explained to him and returned to Germany?

A Yes, I did.

Q What did he say that Lieutenant Kappe told him would be his fate if he returned to Germany?

A To the best of my recollection, sir, I believe it was something to the effect that he would be placed in a detention camp.

Q Placed in a detention camp until they were convinced that he had become a good Nazi; it that right?

A No, I don’t recall anything about the latter part.

Q Did he say how long Lieutenant Kappe said he would have to be in a detention or concentration camp after his return?

A No, I don’t recall that.

Q I do not want to ask you the result of the investigation, because I do not think it would be a proper question,

1501

but have you made an investigation of the defendant Burger’s statement with a view to determining whether, so far as you could determine, the matters he stated to you were accurate?

A My purpose in questioning the defendant Burger was to get the full information for the use of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. That has been the only activity in which I have been engaged in connection with this matter.

Q I see. You did not later investigate the facts which he stated by some independent investigation, did you?

A I myself have not, no, sir.

Colonel Royall. That is all, sir.

The President. Are there any questions by the Commission?

(There was no response.)

The President. Colonel Ristine?

Colonel Ristine. I have no questions.

Mr. Cox. For the possible assistance of counsel for the defendants, I call his attention to Exhibit P-73, which is the waiver of arrest.

Colonel Royall. I think I will ask one further question.

Questions by Colonel Royall:

Q Do you know of your own knowledge whether other agents of the F.B.I. have checked on the accuracy of the defendant Burger’s statement, so far as they were able to check and corroborate it?

A Of my own knowledge, no, sir.

Q Have you discussed that feature of it with other agents?

A Well, I have naturally discussed it with my superior--- the contents of the statement.

1502

Q Have you discussed with them their checking of the statement and the facts which were checked?

A We have discussed the possibility of various items contained in the statement, yes, sir.

Colonel Royall. All right; that is all.

The President. Are there any other questions?

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Mr. Lanman, do you remember what happened on the afternoon of June 20, when you went into Burger’s room?

A Why, I believe so; yes, sir.

Q Was he arrested at that time?

A He was taken into custody at that time by the agents whom I have already named, and myself included, there.

Q I show you Exhibit P-73. Have you ever seen that?

A Yes, sir.

Q What is it?

A This is a signed waiver of custody on the part of Burger, a consent to remain under physical supervision of the Bureau agents of the Department of Justice.

Q I show you also page 65 of the Burger statement, the last paragraph, and ask you if that refreshes your recollection.

A Yes, sir, it does.

Q What does it say?

A “About five o’clock, June 20, when I was in my hotel room, various agents of the F.B.I. came to my room and placed me under arrest.”

Q Did Burger state that in your presence?

A Yes, sir.

1503

Mr. Cox. Thank you. That is all.

RECROSS EXAMINATION

Questions by Colonel Royall:

Q But you still say, do you not, that nothing was said about his arrest until later, and then he was advised that he had been under arrest?

A Colonel, I believe I stated when I was on the stand before that immediately we entered Burger’s room I was ordered to go to the next room and stand by the telephone there to await a report from the office. What transpired at that time, I really could not say.

Q But you do know that he was later told that he was under arrest?

A He understood that.

Q Well, you said he was later told that, did you not, on examination a moment ago?

A Well, the discussion all centered about his arrest.

Colonel Royall. That is all.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Was there any discussion when he signed Exhibit P-73?

A It was read to him, and he was allowed to look it over and to understand its contents, sir.

Q Do you remember what time of day on June 20, 1942, it was signed?

A Very shortly after he was brought to the office.

Q Was he handcuffed when he was brought to the office?

A No, sir.

1504

Mr. Cox. That is all.

Colonel Royall. That is all, sir.

Colonel Ristine. If the Commission please, in connection with the statement that was just read and the letter which was introduced--- I mean the one letter which the prosecution introduced as having been taken from the defendant Dasch--I wish to offer the other two letters which were also taken from the possession of the defendant Dasch and are addressed to the same person, namely, Mr. Burger, as the one letter heretofore introduced by the prosecution, as a part and parcel of the same transaction.

I refer to Defendants’ Exhibits B-1, B-2, B-3, and B-4, and to Defendants’ Exhibits C-1 and C-2.

(At this point Mr. Rowe entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Cox. I think it is out of order, but I have no objection.

Colonel Royall. The defendants other that the defendant Burger object to these letters on the ground that it is hear-say as against them, and not on any other ground. That is merely the same type of objection as we made before.

The President. Subject to the stipulation already in effect, for the time being the Commission rules that, there being no objection now on the part of the prosecution, these may be admitted in evidence.

(Defendants’ Exhibits B-1,

B-2, B-3, and B-4 and C-1

and C-2 were received in evidence.)

Colonel Ristine. Defendants’ Exhibit C-1 is apparently written on stationary of the Mayflower Hotel. I shall not read the part about the Mayflower, but I shall read the letter to the Commission.

1505

DEFENDANTS’ EXHIBIT C-1

“June 19, 42.

“My Dear Friend Pete:

Got savely into town last night and contacted the responsible parties. At present I’m waiting to be brought over to the right man by one of his agent.

“I had a good night rest, feel fine for phisical as well as mentally and believe that I will accomplish the part of our participation. It will take lots of time and talking but please don’t worry, have faith and courage. I try hard to do the right thing. In the meantime take good care of yourself and of the boys. Please don’t go all over town. Keep silent to everybody. I promise you to keep you posted on the future developments.

“Before I left you, I begged the mgr. Of your hotel, Mr. Weil, to take good care of you, for you are a Jewish refugee, so please act accordingly.

“Best regards and wishes

“Geo. J. Dash

“I’ll forward to you my address where you reach me, via mail or phone, soon.”

The envelope is a manila envelope addressed to: “Mr. Ernest Peter Burger, Room 1421, Gov. Clinton Hotel, New York City.”

1506

Colonel Ristine. If the Commission please, I will now read Defendants’ Exhibits B-1, B-2, B-3 and B-4.

Mr. Cox. I would like at this time, if the Commission please, to point out that there is no right on the part of the defense that all the exhibits be read to the Commission; but I do not want to interpose any objection, except to point out that it is discretionary with the Commission in the interests of procedure.

The President. The Commission would prefer to have them read.

Colonel Ristine (reading):

(Defendants’ Exhibits B-1 and B-2)

“The Mayflower

Washington, D.C.

“June 22, 1942

“My dear Pete:

“I bet you begin wondering why I didn’t write to you sooner.

“In my last letter to you from here, I stated that I had found the right way and right persons to tell our story. Since that time things began to happen. I’ve been working like hell from daybreak until dawn. What I have this far accomplished is too much to describe here. I can only tell you, that everything is working out alright. Have faith and patience. You will hear or see me in the near future. Please stick to your role and keep the other boys contented and please don’t loose their sights. Also don’t tell them, that I’ve been here, tell them that you have heard from me from Pittsburgh.

1507

“I also be you to destroy this letter after having read it, for it would be awful if Henry & Dick would ever read this letter.

“So please Pete take good care of yourself, have full at confidence that I shall try to straighten everything out to the best of every one concerned. Until you hear from me again, accept my best regards & wishes.

“Your friend,

George J. Dasch.”

The envelope, Defendants’ Exhibits B-3 and B-4, is addressed as follows:

“Mr. Peter Ernest Burger, Room 1421 Hotel Governor Clinton, New York City.”

There is endorsed on the back of the envelope this statement:

“Dasch attempted to mail 6-22-42-interecepted and held-turned over to Duane L. Traynor 6-25-42. F.G.J.

“Placed in exhibit envelope of Dasch at Bureau just prior to trial on 7/7/42.

“F.G.J.”

Now, if the Commission please, we offer in evidence a supplemental statement written by Mr. Dasch dated July 3, 1942, in the jail, in New York City, which he turned over with the request that it be made a part of the 254-page statement which he had signed.

Mr. Cox. If the Commission please, we object. As a purely practical matter any defendant can write a 600-page statement and say “I hereby make it supplemental to a prior statement I made.” It is so clearly out of order that I do not think it requires elaboration. It is obviously a state-

1508

ment written in longhand by the defendant Dasch under date of July 3, and it seems to me that in the interest of orderly procedure it ought to be kept until the defendants’ case is presented.

A member. It was not dictated?

Mr. Cox. No, sir; it is written in Mr. Dasch’s own handwriting.

The President. Subject to objection by any member of the Commission, the ruling is that the objection of the prosecution is sustained.

Mr. Cox. We will call Mr. Fisher.

Lieutenant Meakin. This witness has not been sworn as to secrecy.

Colonel Munson. In addition to the usual oath administered to a witness the Commission directs that an oath be administered as to secrecy, and the Commission also directs me to inform each person taking that oath that violation of the same may result in contempt proceedings or criminal proceedings. With that understanding are you ready to take the oath?

Mr. Fisher. Yes, sir.

Colonel Munson. You solemnly swear that you will not divulge the proceedings take at this trial to anyone outside of this court room until released from your obligation by proper authority or required so to do by such proper authority?

Mr. Fisher. I do.

Colonel Munson. You swear that the evidence you shall now give in the case on hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Fisher. I do.

1509

W. WILLIS FISHER

was called as a witness for the prosecution and testified as follows:

Colonel Munson. Will you state, please, your name, residence or office address, and occupation?

The Witness. My name is W. Willis Fisher. I am assigned to the New York office as Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I reside at 3545 79^th Street, Jackson Heights, New York City.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by Mr. Cox

Q Do you know the defendant Edward John Kerling?

A Yes, sir.

Q Can you identify him?

A He is seated right ahead of me.

Q Did you take him into custody?

A I did, sir.

Q On what date?

A June 23, 1942.

Q Will you state the circumstances under which you took him into custody?

A Yes, sir. The defendant Kerling was taken into custody at about 10 p.m. on June 23, 1942, by Special Agent T.J. Donegan, and me, in the presence of Special Agent B.D. Rice. He was taken into custody in front of the Shelton Hotel on Lexington Avenue, New York City.

Q Where was he taken?

A He was immediately taken to the office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation at 607 United States Court House, Foley Square, New York.

1510

Q Did you get a waiver of search from Kerling?

A Yes, sir; a waiver was obtained.

Colonel Royall. I believe I would prefer that your inquiry be directed only to those that you know were signed.

Mr. Cox. I want to call the attention of the Commission to the fact that this witness saw only one of these signed; and I had asked counsel if they were willing to stipulate the others.

Colonel Royall. My reason for making the statement was that I want to examine the other agents.

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Have you ever seen this document (handing a paper to the witness)?

A Yes, sir; I have.

Q Was it signed in your presence?

A It was, sir.

The President. What is the document?

The Witness. It is a waiver of search signed by the defendant Kerling on the night of June 23, 1942, addressed to Special Agent E. F. Emrich and me and witnessed by Special Agents J.S. Fellner and L.T. DeLisio.

Mr. Cox. May I offer it in evidence?

(Waiver dated June 23, 1942, signed

by Defendant Edward Kelly, was marked

P-173 and received in evidence.)

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Pursuant to that waiver did you make a search?

A I did, sir.

Q What did you find?

A In Room 908 at the Commodore Hotel I found two bags

1511

two zipper bags, one of which was located in a large black bag.

Q Are any of these the bags to which you have reference (indicating)?

A Yes, sir.

Q Are these (indicating) the two zipper bags?

A Yes, sir.

Colonel Royall. No objection.

Mr. Cox. I offer them in evidence.

(Two zipper bags were

respectively marked P-174 and

P-175 and received in evidence.)

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Did you find another bag?

A Yes, sir; these two bags (indicating) and a black bag.

Mr. Cox. I offer the black bag in evidence.

The President. Is there any objection?

Colonel Royall. No objection whatsoever.

(The black bag referred

to was marked P-176

and received in evidence.)

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Will you continue?

A Both bags contained false bottoms. In the smaller of the two bags, the one inside, was found $24,850 in 50-dollar bills, United States currency. In the other bag was found $29,700, also in 50-dollar bills, United States currency, a total of $54,550.

Q What else did you find there, if anything?

A Mostly personal effects.

Q What was in the big bag?

1512

A The smaller of the two bags on the table was inside of the big bag.

Q Do you want to explain briefly what you mean by a false bottom?

A I can show you, if I may.

Q All right (handing bags to the witness).

A This (indicating) is a false bottom. It was apparently nailed in to the bottom of the bag, and between this and the bottom and pieces of wood there were pasted in this particular bag five packs of 50-dollar bills, and the other one, this one (indicating), contained six rolls or packs of 50-dollar bills. Each pack had a money-band around it. This bag (indicating) also has a false bottom.

Mr. Cox. That is all.

CROSS EXAMINATION

Questions by Colonel Royall:

Q Were you at any time present, at the time the defendant Kerling made any statement?

A Just what statement do you mean?

Q Were you present when he made a written statement?

A No, sir; I was not.

Q Who did you say was present at the time you went to the room to search it?

A I have not said yet. Special Agent C.F. Lanman, Special Agent in Charge S.J. Drayton, Special Agent B.D. Rice, and me.

Q Who was present at the time he signed the paper you have identified, marked P-173?

A Special Agents J.S. Fellner and L.T. DeLisio,

1513

E.F. Emrich and I.

Q At what stage of the proceedings was Special Agent Donegan present?

A Special Agent in Charge D.J. Donegan was present at the time of the arrest and helped to effect his arrest. He was present on the way to the New York office, in the automobile, and hw was present in the room at the time the waiver was obtained.

Colonel Royall. No further questions.

Colonel Ristine. No cross-examination.

The President. Are there any questions by the court? (No response) There seem to be none. The witness is excused.

(The witness left the stand.)

Colonel Royall. We would like Special Agent Donegan out of the court room during the rest of the examination of these agents who talked to the defendant.

The President. Are any of the agents present I the court room, who were mentioned?

Brigadier General Cox. Only Mr. Donegan, and he is leaving.

1514

Lieutenant Meakin. The witness has not been sworn as to secrecy.

General Munson. In addition to the usual oath taken by a witness the Commission directs that an oath of secrecy be taken and directs me also to inform each witness prior to the taking of that oath that violation of the same may result in contempt proceedings of a criminal nature. In so taking the oath you understand that to be the fact?

Mr. Fellner. I do.

Colonel Munson. Do you solemnly swear that you will not divulge the proceedings taken in this trial to any one outside the courtroom until released from your obligation by proper authority or required so to do by such proper authority, so help you God?

Mr. Fellner. I do.

Colonel Munson. You swear that the evidence you shall give in this case shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Fellner. I do.

JOSEPH G. FELLNER

was called as a witness for the prosecution and testified as follows:

Colonel Munson. Will you state your name, residence or office address, and occupation?

The Witness. Joseph G. Fellner, office address 607 United States District Court House, Foley Square, New York City; occupation, Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

1515

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Mr. Fellner, I show you this document. Have you seen it?

A Yes, I have.

Q What is it?

A This is a waiver of custody furnished to me by Edward John Kerling on June 24, 1942, at the New York City office of the FBI.

Q Who else was present at the time?

A Special Agent E. Emerich and Special Agent L.T. DeLisio.

Mr. Cox. I should like to have this marked for identification.

(The document referred

to was marked P-177

for identification.)

Mr. Cox. I offer it in evidence.

(The waiver of custody previously

marked P-177 for identification

was received in evidence.)

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q What else happened on the occasion when this document was signed?

A There was also furnished a waiver of search by Edward John Kerling.

Q At the time of this arrest did he deliver you any money?

A Not at the time of his arrest. I saw Kerling after he was arrested.

Q What time was it that you took the money from him?

1516

A About 10:15 p.m. in the evening of June 23, 1942.

Q Will you tell us what this is?

A Yes, this is a money belt that Kerling removed from his person, from around his waist, in my presence, on the evening of June 23, 1942.

Q Did he deliver it over to you?

A Yes, he did.

Q What did he say?

A He did not describe it. We asked him where the money belt was.

Q Was there any money in it?

A Yes. There were 74 fifty-dollar United States Federal reserve notes in this money belt, totaling $3700.

Mr. Cox. I offer this in evidence, this photograph.

Colonel Royall. No objection.

(The photograph just referred to

was received in evidence as P-178.)

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Did you obtain any handkerchiefs from Kerling?

A Yes, I did. I obtained two handkerchiefs from Kerling, one of which he indicated contained secret writing.

Colonel Royall. Now, may it please the Commission, in order to avoid repetition, that is the first time the witness has testified to anything that the defendant Kerling said, and it was not quite responsive to the question. I am not making that point, however, except to make it clear that the other seven defendants repeat their objection, on the same stipulation, to any statements make by Kerling, either in writing or orally.

1517

Mr. Cox. I understand that that objection runs all the way through.

Colonel Royall. The reason was that the answer was not responsive.

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Are those the handkerchiefs you saw?

A Yes.

The President. What was the question?

Mr. Cox. Are those the handkerchiefs that you saw.

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q What did he say about them?

A I asked him which one had the secret writing on it and he said he didn’t know which of the two, but one of them had it on.

Mr. Cox. I offer in evidence two photographs.

Colonel Royall. There is no objection to the introduction of the handkerchiefs. What are their numbers?

A Member. What are the other exhibits?

Mr. Cox. 177 and 178.

The President. May we see the photographs, please?

Colonel Royall. If the Commission please, those are not in evidence.

Mr. Cox. No, those are not in evidence.

The President. I beg your pardon. I thought you had no objection to them.

Colonel Royall. No objection to the handkerchiefs. I don’t know what he is going to bring out about the writing.

Mr. Cox. Mark these original handkerchiefs 179 and 180 for identification.

1518

(The two handkerchiefs referred

to were marked for identification

P-179 and P-180.)

Colonel Royall. If the Commission will give us an opportunity to examine those a moment, we may shorten it.

The President. Yes, indeed.

Colonel Royall. There is no objection to the photograph as being the correct representation of the writing which appeared on the handkerchief.

Mr. Cox. I offer these in evidence.

(The two handkerchiefs previously

marked P-179 and P-180 for identification

were received in evidence.)

Mr. Cox. I will now have this photograph marked P-181.

(The photograph referred to was

marked P-181 for identification.)

Mr. Cox. I offer in evidence this photograph marked P-181.

Colonel Royall. No objection on behalf of the defendant Kerling.

(The photograph marked P-181 for

identification was received in evidence.)

Mr. Cox. I also offer in evidence P-179 and P-180, the two handkerchiefs, if I have not already done so.

Colonel Royall. No objection on behalf of the defendant Kerling. I understand as far as the writing is concerned we have the same stipulation.

Mr. Cox. I understand that these exhibits will be reproduced in full in the record of the proceedings and therefore I have not taken the time to read them.

A Member. See if Colonel Ristine has any objection.

1519

Colonel Royall. It was understood, I think, sir--and it appears in the record--that unless Colonel Ristine stated otherwise the objections on behalf of the other defendants also apply to the defendant Dasch.

Colonel Ristine. That is correct.

Mr. Cox. But the question you asked was whether no objections apply.

A Member. I thought if we found out now we would get that much over and save our time.

Colonel Ristine. I take it the objection applies unless I specify otherwise. With respect to this writing we do not object on behalf of defendant Dasch.

A Member. That is what I was trying to straighten out.

Colonel Ristine. Yes, and that would apply equally to the handkerchiefs.

Colonel Royall. Will the Commission indulge me long enough to look over this photograph, which I have no seen.

The President. Yes.

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Did you find anything else in the money belt that Kerling turned over to you?

A Yes, I did.

Q What was it?

A I found three matches.

Q I show you this. Is that one of the matches you found?

A That is.

Q And this one?

A That is.

1520

Q Will you also look at the photographic reproductions attached to those articles?

A Yes.

Colonel Royall. No objection to the introduction of the matches or photographs of them.

Mr. Cox. I will have these marked for identification.

(Two photographs were thereupon

marked P-182 and 183 for identification.)

Mr. Cox. I offer in evidence Exhibits P-182 and P-183, which are reproductions of the matches that I just asked the witness about.

This is a fifty-dollar bill.

Colonel Royall. I didn’t see that. No objection to that either.

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Do you know what that is?

A Yes, I do.

Q What is it?

A That is one of the matches I removed from Kerling’s money belt.

Q Do you know what kind of matches those are?

A I asked Kerling about it and he told me they were used for preparing secret messages, invisible rather than secret.

Mr. Cox. I offer in evidence this match.

Colonel Royall. There is no objection, if we can find out the numbers. We are way behind now.

Mr. Cox. That will be P-184. The other two matches are 182 and 183.

1521

(The match referred to was

received in evidence as P-184.)

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Will you tell us what that is?

A Yes, this is a wallet removed from Kerling’s possession.

Q Was there anything in it?

A Yes, there was. There was some money in there and a number of cards.

A Member. Are you applying the same rule you had before with reference to objection, if there is no objection?

Colonel Ristine. Yes.

A Member. Are you objecting to all of these things?

Mr. Cox. Oh, no. I understood it was exactly the other way.

A Member. The record, I believe, is just the other way. Now, we want to find out what the rule is with reference to these things that are being offered now.

Colonel Ristine. If the Commission please, I was following the rule which we had adopted, that unless I otherwise stated there was an objection on the part of my client.

A Member. Then you do object to these?

Colonel Ristine. That is correct. I did not object to the handkerchiefs or the photographs of the handkerchiefs as specifically so stated.

Mr. Cox. Do you object to the other exhibits we put in, of the matches?

Colonel Ristine. Yes. There is an objection to the rest of the testimony, as per the stipulation.

1522

Colonel Royall. May it please the Commission--

A Member. I think we had better pass on the point now.

Colonel Royall. I do not want to complicate the matter any more that it is complicated, but my stipulation which is carrying through does not relate to any physical evidence, but merely to the declarations or confessions of the respective defendants. I think that appears in the record; I am sure it does. Therefore I have no objection to any physical evidence. I do no mean that I think it is competent as to these other defendants, because in most instances it takes the confession of another defendant to connect it up with him, but I am not objecting to any physical evidence unless it contains some writing or declaration, and therefore our stipulation does not cover any of these exhibits.

Now, I think I should state that, in order that Colonel Ristine, if he wants to make a specific objection to physical evidence, can make it to protect his rights, because that is not my stipulation.

Colonel Ristine. If it please the Commission, the photograph of the contents on the handkerchief I did not consider was physical evidence, because that was a reproduction of the secret writing on the handkerchief. I specifically stated, however, that my client did not object to that testimony.

Now, with respect to the other physical exhibits, they are exhibits which were obtained from the other group of which my client Mr. Dasch was not a part.

I cannot see how the physical exhibits, except insofar

1523

as they were gone into by my own client in his statement, would be admissible as against him, and I did not understand that they were even being offered as against the group Mr. Dasch was in. I understood the Attorney General to state that he desired to go into the evidence with respect to the four who landed in Florida.

A Member. That is not your understanding, Mr. Cox?

Mr. Cox. No. I think it should be make very clear here that that is an unusual rule of evidence, in which a physical object is not admissible because the counsel for the defendant Dasch does not think it is very weighty. That goes to the weight of the evidence and subject to whatever other connection evidence there is in terms of what weight this Commission will give to it.

Colonel Ristine. If it please the Commission, in order to clarify it and simplify it, I will, with respect to the physical exhibits of the other group, withdraw any objections insofar as my client is concerned, with respect to those physical exhibits.

1524

Mr. Cox. I offer in evidence a pocketbook about which the witness just testified and also a photographic reproduction of it.

Colonel Royall. What is the number?

Mr. Cox. P-185.

Colonel Royall. No objection.

(The pocketbook referred

to was marked as Exhibit

P-185 and offered in evidence.)

Mr. Cox. Just to save the time of the Commission, I should like to ask counsel for the defense a question.

(Mr. Cox conferred with counsel for the defense.)

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Would you tell us what that is?

A Yes. This is a social security card I removed from the wallet of Edward John Kerling on the night of his apprehension, June 23, 1942.

Q Did he tell you anything about it?

A Yes. The following day he told me that he got this card in Germany.

Mr. Cox. I offer the card and the photograph in evidence.

Colonel Royall. No objection to the card.

A Member. What is the card?

Colonel Royall. A social security card.

(Social security card referred to

was marked as Exhibit P-186

and offered in evidence.)

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Would you tell us what this is, please?

A This is a registration certificate for Selective Service which I removed from Kerling’s wallet on the night of

1525

his apprehension, June 23, 1942, at New York City, and there was also a registration--- a blank registration certificate for Selective Service that I removed from his possession on the same evening.

Mr. Cox. I offer in evidence the registration certificate and photograph of it.

Colonel Royall. May I respectfully suggest that the Assistant Solicitor General announce that number of each exhibit?

Mr. Cox. This is P-187.

(Blank registration certificate for

Selective Service removed from

Edward John Kerling was marked

as Exhibit P-187 and offered in evidence.)

Mr. Cox. I will ask to have this piece of paper marked for identification.

(Piece of paper removed from

wallet of Edward John Kerling

was marked as Exhibit P-188

for identification.)

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Will you tell us what Exhibit P-188 is?

A This is a piece of paper that I removed from the wallet of Edward John Kerling on the night of his apprehension, June 23, 1942.

Mr. Cox. I offer in evidence Exhibit P-188.

Colonel Royall. No objection.

(Exhibit P-188 for identification

was offered in evidence.)

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Will you tell us what it says?

A This slip of paper has a pencil notation on it reading, “Maywood 3609, Bartler.”iHiHH

1526

Q Did Kerling say anything about that when he handed it over to you?

A Yes. I asked him what this number had reference to, and he said it was a number that Herbert Haupt could be located through in Chicago, Illinois.

Mr. Cox. That is all.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Colonel Royall. This cross-examination is on behalf of the defendant Kerling solely.

Questions by Colonel Royall.

Q Mr. Fellner, were you at any time present with the defendant Kerling at the time Agent Donegan was present?

A Yes, I was.

Q When and where?

A I was present with Edward John Kerling on the evening of June 23 and the morning of June 24, 1942, in the local office – New York Office – of the FBI.

Q Were you present at any time when the defendant Kerling complained to a physician about the treatment given him by Agent Donegan?

A Yes, I was.

Q What was the name of the physician?

A Dr. Dwyer.

Q Where is he?

A I don’t know his local address, but I presume he is in New York City.

Q Is he connected with the FBI?

A Note t hat I know of.

Q You know where he could be located? Don’t you?

1527

A No, I don’t.

Q Who connected with the FBI does know?

A I couldn’t tell you.

Q How did he happen to be there?

A He was there when I was present in the room with Kerling.

Q Who called him?

A I don’t know.

Q That was the time Kerling stated that Agent Donegan, in an effort to obtain a statement from him, had struck him in the face?

A That is not correct.

Q What did he say?

A When Dr. Dwyer was present, Dr. Dwyer asked Kerling how he was being treated and if he had any objections. Kerling said he did.

Mr. Cox. I would like to point out that this is not proper cross-examintaion, but I have no objection.

Colonel Royall. Well, sir, I admit it is not, but it is just to save the time of recalling this agent. I will call him back if you prefer.

The President. No; since there is no objection, you may proceed.

Questions by Colonel Royall:

Q What else did he say about it?

A Incidentally, Mr. Donegan wasn’t present when the doctor asked Kerling that question.

Q I didn’t ask you that, sir; I said, what else was said about it?

1528

A I presumed your question meant in Mr. Donegan’s presence. Now, Mr. Donegan wasn’t present when that subject came up.

Q I didn’t ask you that. What else was said about it?

A That is the way I understood your question.

Q What was said about it?

A Well, Kerling said that someone had hit him in the face.

Q Did he say who did?

A Not at this time.

Q When did he say that Donegan hit him in the face.

A Incidentally, I would like to interject this. I asked him if that incident had occurred in my presence, because I was present when he was brought in the office. He said, “No,” and the subject was dropped at this time.

Q When did he tell you that he was talking about Donegan?

A Well, later, I would say, probably about five minutes later. Mr. Donegan entered the office, and he asked Kerling if he has struck Kerling in the face, and Kerling said, “Well, you brushed me lightly on the side of my face,” and he went through a motion like that (indicating).

Q That was after Donegan had taken Kerling out of the room and brought him back there to retract what he had said?

A No, it wasn’t.

Q Donegan did take him out of the room alone, didn’t he?

A Later on, yes, he did.

Q After Donegan took him out of the room alone, Kerling came back and retracted in part his statement, didn’t he?

1529

A Well, Mr. Donegan asked him—

Q (interposing) Will you answer my question, sir?

A I can’t answer that yes or no.

Q Well, don’t you know whether he retracted part of his statement after Donegan took him out of the room?

Mr. Cox. I think the witness ought to be allowed to answer the last question.

Colonel Royall. Please read the last question, Mr. Reporter.

Reporter. (reading):

“Question. After Donegan took him out of the room alone, Kerling came back and retracted in part his statement didn’t he?”

Questions by Colonel Royall:

Q Did not Mr. Kerling retract part of his statement after Donegan took him out of the room alone?

A Yes, he did.

Q Why did you say a moment ago that you could not answer the question?

A I tried to explain it, but you didn’t seem to want the explanation.

Q Mr. Fellner, were you present at any other time except the ones you have told about?

A Well, I was present with Kerling most of the time from approximately 10:15pm on June 23, 1942 until 8:50am June 24, 1942.

Q How much sleep was Kerling permitted to get during that period.

A He was sleeping most of the time.

1530

Mr. Cox. I should also like to point out one other thing. Having made this witness his own witness by this procedure, he is also proceeding to cross-examine him, to which, also, I have no objection.

Colonel Royall. We object to the comment of the Assistant Solicitor General. I am cross-examining only in anticipation of other evidence in connection with his statements. I am not making him my own witness. If there is any objection on that ground, I will ask to have the witness step down and shall recall him at the proper time.

Mr. Cox. I make no objection. I think it is rudimentary as a matter of law, that when the cross-examination is not related to the direct examination, the examining counsel makes the witness his own witness. I want to point out, also without objection, that having made him his own witness, he is cross-examining.

Questions by Colonel Royall

Q Mr. Fellner, you say he slept most of that time?

A Yes, sir, at least he gave all indications. I couldn’t tell you if he was sleeping or not, but he certainly had his eyes closed and his head hung most of the time.

Q Every time he got his eyes a little closed, you would wake him up and insist on continuing his questioning, would you not?

A I would ask him questions, yes.

Q You did that every time you thought he was going to sleep, didn’t you?

A I did not.

Q Well, you or somebody else did?

A Well, I was the one who was questioning him, and I didn’t.

Q Wasn’t there someone else there?

A Yes, there was someone else there.

Q Did not somebody else wake him up when you didn’t?

A Well, as I recall it, I woke him up most of the time. Well, he didn’t need waking up. He was seated there most of the time. Then he lay down on the cot—he lay down on the floor, when we didn’t have a cot. I said we didn’t have facilities to do it. He asked if he could lay on the floor. I said “Go ahead” and sent for pillows and blankets and everything I could to make him comfortable.

Q You stated he didn’t need waking up.

A I talked to him.

Q What did you mean when you said he didn’t need waking up?

A I talked to him, and he would mutter and raise his head.

Q Why did you say he slept most of the night?

A I didn’t say he slept; I said it was apparent he was going through the motions, as though he was sleepy.

Q I will ask you if you did not state, in your opinion, that he slept most of the night.

A I said that, but I modified it at the same time, because I cant say necessarily when a man is sleeping.

Q Which is correct; that he slept most of the night, or that he didn’t need waking up?

A The correct answer—

1532

Mr. Cox. I object. This is argumentative. The witness has already answered the question.

Colonel Royall. He has answered it both ways.

Questions by Colonel Royall.

Q Mr. Fellner, as a matter of fact, the defendant complained quite frequently about your not letting him sleep that night, isn’t that correct?

A No, he didn’t.

Q He didn’t complain at all?

A Oh, he said he was sleepy, yes. He said he wanted to lie down, and we got him a cot to lie down, and he lay down.

Q How many times did he complain of your keeping him awake?

A I can’t answer that.

Q Did he give any statement that night?

A No he didn’t.

Q Did you have stenographic report made of his questions and the answers he made?

A No, sir. He didn’t give anything of value, so there was no reason for doing it.

Q What time did you leave in the morning?

A Approximately 10:50am

Q Up to that time, then, so statement had been taken?

A No, sir.

Q Were you present at any time any statement was taken?

A No, Sir.

Q Did the defendant Kerling while you were that ask to have a lawyer?

1533

A Yes, he did. That was the first question he asked when he came in.

Q What did you say to him?

A I told him that at the opportune time—at the right time—he would be given an opportunity to get a lawyer.

Q Did he want one right then?

A No, sir; the subject was dropped after that.

Q How many times did he ask for a lawyer?

A When he came in, he sat down and asked for a lawyer. That was the only time. Then he demanded—he asked if he had got all of his civil rights.

Q Mr. Fellner, you say you found or located two handkerchiefs?

A Yes, sir.

Q How did you determine which one the writing was on?

A I didn’t know, sir, except by Kerling’s indications.

Q He did tell you, then?

A He said one of the two; he didn’t know which himself.

Q I say, how did you find out which one it was on?

A Well, as a matter of fact, to my personal knowledge, I don’t know that there is any on the handkerchief to this day.

Q It is not clear what you meant when you said, when I asked you first how you found which handkerchief it was on, “By Kerling’s indication.”

A That is right; there were two handkerchiefs.

Q How did you tell which one?

A He pointed them out.

Q He pointed out which one?

1534

A He pointed out two handkerchiefs. Two handkerchiefs were removed from his clothes, placed on the desk at which I was seated, and I asked him which one the secret writing was on. He didn’t know which; he said, “On one of the two.”

Q With reference to his social security card, did he tell you that that had been filled in by George Dasch?

A No, sir.

Q He did not tell you that?

A No, sir.

Q You were not present when he made that statement?

A No, sir.

Colonel Royall. That is all I care to ask.

The President. Colonel Ristine?

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Q Mr. Fellner, I wish you would tell me if the false address of Ernest Dasch, given as 11 Pelham Road, New London, appears on that photograph?

The President. Will you please state the question again?

Questions by Colonel Ristine

Q I wish you would state if the false address or incorrect address of Ernest Dasch, given as 11 Pelham Road, New London, appears on that exhibit.

A I see on this exhibit the name “Ernest Dasch,” and the number “11 Pelham Road, New London,” but I couldn’t tell you whether it is correct or incorrect.

Q What is the exhibit number?

A This is exhibit P-181.

1535

Q That exhibit is a photograph of the writings that appeared on one of the handkerchiefs taken from Mr. Kerling, is it not?

A I couldn’t tell you that, sir, because as far as I know personally, I don’t know there was any secret writing on the handkerchiefs.

Q You did not identify the exhibit?

A No, sir.

Mr. Cox. It was offered in evidence without objection. I asked him no questions about it.

Colonel Ristine. Well, I take it it was offered in evidence.

Mr. Cox. It was offered merely to save time, since everything was agreed to, and there was no objection.

The President. There was no objection. You made the specific statement, as I remember it, that you had no objection to any of the physical exhibits, of which this was a photograph of one, that had already been put before the reporter. Is that correct, Mr. Cox?

Mr. Cox. That is correct.

The President. Of course, the commission will hear you if you wish to make an objection.

Colonel Ristine. I do not. I merely wish to identify what it is. I understood it was offered as a photograph of the writing that appeared on one of the handkerchiefs taken from Kerling.

Member. But he does not know anything about it.

Colonel Ristine. Well, I just want to identify the

1536

exhibit. We have no further cross-examination.

Colonel Royall. We have nothing else.

The President. Mr. Solicitor General, you have nothing further?

Mr. Cox. No, I have nothing else. May we excuse the witness?

The President. Yes, he may be excused.

Mr. Cox. I should like to clarify the record by stating that I have offered that photographs instead of t he physical objects. To save the time of the commission, I should like to make an offer of proof, which I understand is likely to be agreed to by the defense counsel, and that is that we could produce testimony of an expert to show that one of these handkerchiefs when subjected to the proper reagent would produce what is shown on exhibit P-181.

Colonel Royall. That is admitted.

Mr. Cox. And also that the three matches which were introduced in evidence, exhibits P-182, P-185, and P-184, are a kind of secret writing device.

Colonel Royall. That is admitted, except that P-182 is a $50 bill.

Mr. Cox. Well it is both, it has got the match through it.

Special Agent Holtzman

Lt. Neakin. This witness has not been sworn to secrecy.

Colonel Munson. Mr. Holtzman, in addition to the oath usually taken as a witness, there is administered an oath of

1537

secrecy. The commission instructs me to inform you that, having taken that oath any violation thereof is subject to the contempt proceeding or court proceedings of a like nature. In so taking this oath you understand that to be the rule?

Mr. Holtzman. I do.

Colonel Munson. Do you solemnly swear that you will not divulge the proceedings taken in this trial to anyone outside the courtroom until released from your obligation by proper authority or required so to do by such proper authority?

Mr. Holtzman. I do.

Colonel Munson. Do you swear that the evidence you shall give in the case now on hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Holtzman. I do.

JOHN A. HOLTZMAN

was produced as a witness for the prosecution and testified as follows:

1538

Colonel Munson. State your name, residence or business address, and occupation.

Witness. John A Holtzman; I reside at 111-14 76^th Avenue, Forest Hills, Long Island. I am a special Agent, Federal Bureau of Investigation.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by Mr. Cox

Q Have you ever seen that document (handing a paper to the witness)?

A Yes, sir; I have.

Q Will you state what it is?

A This is a waiver for removal which I requested Edward Kerling to sign and which he did sign in my presence, and I witnessed it.

Q What is the date of it?

A July 2, 1942

Mr. Cox. I offer it in evidence, may it please the Commission.

Colonel Royall. No objection

Colonel Ristine. No Objection

(Waiver dated July 2, 1942, signed by Defendant Kerling, was marked P-189 and received in evidence)

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q Have you ever seen that document (handing a paper to the witness)?

A Yes, sir; I have.

Colonel Royall. What is it?

Mr. Cox. I will ask the witness what it is.

Witness. A statement of Edward Kerling

1539

Questions by Mr. Cox:

Q In whose presence was it made?

A It was signed by Edward Kerling in the presence of myself and Special Agent E. Brightman.

Q Did he make the statement voluntarily?

A He did.

Mr. Cox. I offer the statement into evidence.

Colonel Royall. I would like to examine the witness before it is received.

The President. If there is no objection, that may be done.

Questions by Colonel Royall:

Q When was this statement given to you?

A It is dated June 28^th 1942. That is the date that Kerling signed the statement.

Q When did he give you the facts or the statements contained in it?

A The information obtained in that statement was obtained primarily on June 24 and June 27.

Q Starting when?

A On the morning of June 24^th, I first saw Edward Kerling at about 9am and obtained some information between then and 10 am.

Q Who was present at that time?

A Special Agent M. R. Griffen.

Q Was agent Donegan present at any time?

A No, sir; he was not.

Q Do you know whether or not that was before or after the defendant Kerling complained of being struck by Agent Donegan?

1540

A I didn’t know that he had so complained.

Q Was Donegan present at any time that you were present?

A No, sir; he was not.

Q Anyway this statement was made after the night of June 23 and mostly after the morning of June 24, was it not?

A Yes, sir.

Q Was a doctor there at any time.

A You mean, prior to the signing of this statement?

Q Yes

A He was not in my presence; no sir.

Q Was he there at any time in your presence and during the signing of the statement?

A No, sir,

Q Did you know that there was a doctor there at some time?

A The first I saw there was a doctor in Mr. Kerling’s presence was on the 25^th of June or July 1^st, I don’t remember which.

Q Did Kerling request you to get him an attorney before he made any statement?

A He never made any such request to me?

Q You did not see him until after Agent Fellner saw him?

A Agent Fellner was with him when I first met him.

Q When you arrived?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did he leave shortly thereafter?

A He did.

Q And whatever statement you got from the defendant was after Fellner left?

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A Yes, sir.

Colonel Royall. Those are the only preliminary questions that I desire to ask the witness, if the commission please. But I would like to object on behalf of the defendant Kerling to this statement. The burden is upon the prosecution to show that it was voluntarily made. The burden is not upon the defendant to show that it was involuntary. That is a provision of the Court-Martial manual, as I understand it. It certainly is a provision of the general law where a person is in custody.

Without trying to delay the trail by any prolonged argument, I desire to call attention to the fact that this man was admittedly not permitted to sleep during the entire night; that he was denied his right to counsel before making a statement, Fellner having stated that he made that request; that he apparently was struck by Agent Donegan, because he stated in Donegan’s presence that he was so struck, and there was no denial by Donegan according to the testimony.

We think that under those circumstances the prosecution has failed to carry the burden of showing that this was a voluntary statement. The present witness came in after Donegan and Fellner had moved out, apparently within a few minutes after those various occurrences, after the defendant had been up all night, after the episode had occurred about the striking; and the mere fact that t hey had withdrawn from the scene and a new agent immediately succeeded them would not alter the coercion that appears from the evidence that has been so far introduced.

Mr. Cox. I only want to make a very brief argument.

One. It is pretty clear, under the ruling of the Supreme Court, even at common law, that a confession is presumptively

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voluntary

Two. As I heard the evidence there was no proof of involuntariness, counsel drawing inferences from the questions and answers.

Three. This very argument starts off by saying that the defendant Edward John Kerling makes the following voluntary statement.

If counsel wishes, we can produce Donegan and submit him to cross-examination. But I think it is perfectly clear on the record that this was a voluntary statement. There is no proof to the contrary. Even without the requirement of proof I asked this witness that, as a preliminary question, and he said it was.

Colonel Royall. I would like to reply briefly, if the commission please.

The statement of this witness that it is a voluntary statement is a conclusion. It is for the commission to determine under the circumstances whether it is or not, and not for the witness. The Court-Martial Manual expressly provides that it must appear that the confession was voluntary before it can be admitted.

Furthermore, it is elementary, I think, that the mere fact that the witness says in the statement that it is a voluntary statement is entitled to no appreciable weight, because if the statement was not voluntary, then his statement that the statement was voluntary was not voluntary; and it is well established that if the statement falls because of lack of being voluntary it cannot pull itself up by its own boot-straps.

Therefore I take it that under those circumstances the matter must be determined by the commission upon the evidence

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now before it.

Mr. Cox. It is perfectly clear that even in the States which apply the strictest rules on confessions, even in case of doubt, which I do not think is present in this case, the confession is admissible; and then the question before the commission or the tribunal is how much weight to give it.

This witness has already identified Kerling’s signature to this statement, where the prefatory statement is made that “I give the following voluntary statement”; and in the absence of contrary proof, there is no doubt about it.

The President. Do I take it that you object to spreading this statement on the record?

Colonel Royall. Yes, sir. I object to the statement on the ground that upon the evidence now before the commission it has not been shown to be voluntary; and the burden is upon the prosecution so to show.

The President. If there is no objection on the part of any member of the commission, the objection of the defense is not sustained.

Colonel Ristine. If the commission please, I take it that the stipulation respecting the objections so far as my client is concerned applies to this statement on the ground that it is hearsay; and being a statement outside of the presence and the hearing of the defendant, with no opportunity to cross examine the person making that statement, and not being in furtherance of an conspiracy shown to exist in which my client participated, he objects to it as aevidence against himself.

Mr. Cox. I understand that it is the same objections that we have had heretofore.

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Colonel Royall. I understand that stipulation carries all the way through.

Mr Cox. Yes.

Questions by Mr. Cox.

Q I show you exhibit P-190. Does it have ink changes in the typewritten script?

A Yes, sir; there are a number of changes.

Q Who made those changes?

A Those changes were made by Edward Kerling.

Mr. Cox. I would like to point out one sentence, if the commission please. There is no duty that I read these confessions but in the interest of giving full latitude to the defendants I have no objection, and if the commission please, this witness may now read it.

Colonel Dowell. I would like to have it read, if the commission please.

The President. The witness will read the statement please.

Colonel Royall. If the commission please, may I make this suggestion. The long statement of the defendant Dasch was read with great rapidity, which of course was perfectly understandable, in view of its length and the nature of some of its contents. I hope that this statement, which is not so terribly long, can be read a little more slowly, so that we may all keep up with it better.

The President. Has this statement been at the disposition of counsel for the defense?

Colonel Royall. It has, sir. But at the speed with which the others were read, they have been hard to follow.

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The President. We will ask the witness to read it in the natural way, and if you wish to speed it up or slow it up, we will be glad to have you so state.

Colonel Royall. Thank you, sir.

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Witness. This statement bears the date line “New York City, Sunday 24^th 1942.”

EXHIBIT 190

(Reading):

“I, Edward John Kerling, give the following voluntary statement to Special Agents John A. Holtzman and D. M. Brightman, who have identified themselves as Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I have been made no promises and no duress has been used in order to induce me to make this statement. I make the same freely and voluntary knowing that it can be used against me if necessary.

“I was born in Wiesbaden-Biebrich, Rhineland, Germany, June 12, 1909. My father’s name is Kasper Kerling and my mother’s name is Walburgn. They both reside at Wiesebaden-Bisbrich, Rhineland, Germany. My father is a retired director of the South German Railroad Company. During World War #1 he served as a Lieutenant in the German army and was wounded in action. I have one sister Wally. She is married to Fritz Meyer-Holsmann. My brother in law is not in the German Army, but is employed at the I. G. Farbenindustrie.

“I graduated from public school and from the Riehl school (high school) in Wiesbaden. I attended Friedberg University for two semester, which is approximately one and a quarter years, where I studied engineering. At the time I was attending school, which was in the part of Germany occupied by the British,

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my parents were evacuated by the British troops into unoccupied Germany.

“I left school and came to the United States on the SS DRESDEN in March, 1928. I traveled to New York as a tourist passenger under a quota on the SS DRESDEN. I secured a position with the Dold Packing Company of Brooklyn, New York, working at smoking hams. I remained here for two years, then I secured a position with Cohen Brothers Packing house on Greenwich Street, New York City. I worked there for about two years. I then secured a position as chauffeur for Eli Culbertson, the bridge expert, on his place at Hicksville, Long Island, where I remained for one summer. After that I secured a position with Henry Dicks, a uniform manufacturer who had estates at Mt Kisco, New York and St Petersburg, Florida. I worked for this man during the summer and winter of 1933.

“On October 13, 1931, I married Marie Sichart at the City Hall, New York City. My wife had come to the United States in either 1923 or 1926 from Munich, where her mother is presently residing, being supported on a pension. My wife’s father is dead.

“About June, 1933, my wife and I returned to Germany on the SS DEUTSCHLAND, which left from New York City and landed at Hamburg. I worked my way over on the boat in the kitchen while my wife went as a tourist passenger.

“While in Germany we visited our families. My wife and I returned to New York about September, 1933, on the

1548

SS DEUTSCHLAND as tourist passengers. After my return, I secured a position as chauffeur with W. J. Hobbson, a banker residing in Greenwich Connecticut. I worked for this man from two to two and a half years. After this I secured a position with Victor G Armstrong, a railroad man living at Short Hills, New Jersey. I worked for this man for about four years, until 1939.

“During this time and about June, 1936, I returned to Germany alone on the SS EUROPA to attend the Olympic Games in Berlin. I stayed there for about four weeks and returned home on the SS BREMEN. My trip over and back was taken as a tourist passenger.

“In the latter part of 1939, I and others purchased a boat, LEKALA, a yawl, in Baltimore, Maryland, and sailed it to Florida. It was our intention to return to Germany in this boat but because of restrictions placed upon them we were unable to do so and consequently were forced to sell the boat in Miami in May, 1940.

“In June, 1940, I returned to Germany on the SS EXOCHORDIA of the American Export Line via Lisbon, Portugal. After staying from twelve to fourteen days in Lisbon awaiting transportation, I finally flew to Rome, Italy where I took a train to Germany, arriving at Innsbruck on August 3, 1940. I went direct to Berlin looking for a job and got a position with the German Army. I was sent to Deauville, France, where I worked in an army listening post translating records of English broadcasts. I remained there three months,

1549

until the project was given up, and then returned to Berlin. I then got a job with the Propaganda Ministry as a ‘referent’ managing German (legitimate stage shows) theatres. I remained there until April, 1942.

“About the middle of April, 1942, the exact date I am unable to remember, a man who identified himself as Walter Kappe came to my office in the German Propaganda Ministry Building, branch office, located at Fehrbelliner Place #5, Berlin Germany. Kappe was in civilian clothes and stated that he had a record of me and knew that I had been in America. I imagine he obtained this record from either the police or the immigration records where I had been required to register as I entered Germany and when I went to Berlin. Kappe asked me what I had done while I was in America and I explained my activities in the United States as have been set out previously in this statement.

“Kappe then asked me if I wanted to return to the United States and I asked him why. He then told me that I would get the necessary information later. I told him that I was not able to get away because of my job and he told me that that would be arranged also. At that time I was making 600 marks a month working for the Propaganda ministry.

“About a week later, Kappe came back into the office and asked me if I would come to the United States on a Military Mission as a soldier. I asked him what I would do and who else was going. He said I would find

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out later and I agreed that I would take the assignment thinking that it would involve coming to the United States in uniform, getting a job done and returning to Germany. Kappe told me that he was selecting men for this assignment who had formerly lived in the United States.

“After I agreed to come to the United States on this mission, Kappe gave me his local Berlin address, which I do not now remember and told me to come to that place several days later. I did this, at which time I met Kappe and Dasch. This was in an apartment building, Kappe occupying the top floor apartment, and the building was near the Gedsechnia Church. Kappe told Dasche and myself that we would be required to attend school at Brandemburg, Germany for a special training course. This conversation took place late in the day towards the end of April.

“Within several days of this conversation, I managed to clean up my affairs in the propaganda Ministry and went back to Kappe’s apartment to keep the appointment previously made. At this time the following individuals the were also there in addition to Kappe, who by this time I knew to be a Lieutenant in the German Army: George Dasch, Herb Haupt, Herman Neubauer, Theil, Peter, Last name unknown, Smith, known to me as Smitty, and an unknown man. Besides these individuals, there was a man called Dempsey.

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whose first name I do not know at the present. These last two mentioned persons did not finish the special training course as set out later in this statement.

“This group of eleven which included myself was taken by Lt. Kappe to an estate outside of Brandenburg located on Quintis Lake, which date to the best of my recollection was about May 1^.

^“This estate had a house with living accommodations for ten or twelve individuals, a gymnasium, and a pistol and rifle range. At the time we arrived there, there were several caretakers and a farmer present but no other classes or groups of individuals that I know of. Lt Kappe did not remain there but returned to Berlin and instructions were taken over by two men known to me as Schulter and Koenig, who where civilians. We were given instructions from nine to Twelve AM and from two to four PM daily.

“It is my idea that one of the primary reasons for this school was to enable this group of eleven to become acquainted with each other and learn to like and trust each other. We conversed together in English so as to perfect our English, although we received our instructions in German. I might mention that when I inquired about other similar groups, I was informed that this was the first class of its kind.

“By way of training we were instructed in the use of explosives, which we called dynamite, time fuses, detonators, and fuse pencils, necessary to ignite dynamite, and physical training. We were not

1552

given specific instructions as to plants or facilities that we were to destroy in the United States, but were told to concentrate on power lines, and that if we were able to destroy railroads and other facilities without injuring or killing anyone, we should do so. Our instructions were very definite that we were not to cause the death of any one or injury to any one by explosives and it was explained to us that it would not be of any benefit to Germany and would only serve to arouse the people of the United States against us. The only use to which the fuse pencils were so be was to light fuses on the bombs and high explosives. In connection with the destruction of power facilities we were taken to a factory of I. G. Farbenindustrie located on the Elbe river in the town of Blesterfield. At this plant we were shown the various vital spots in the power supply which were capable of being sabotaged.

“During the course of our training we were also given practical demonstrations of the explosive materials we were to use. This course lasted for a period of two or three weeks. I cant remember exactly which and during the course the two persons above-mentioned dropped out since they were not liked and could not get along with the other students.

“Upon the completion of the course, we were told to meet in Lt. Kappe’s apartment in Berlin on a particular date, which I do not remember, around the latter part of May, 1942. Until this date our time

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was to be our own and I spent mine with my parents in Wiesbaden-Biebrich, Rhineland, Germany. On the appointed date in the latter part of May, I met the nine other individuals in Kappe’s apartment, and at that time the individuals were grouped as follows:

“In my group were Haupt, Neubauer, and Thiel. In the group headed by George Dasch were Smitty, Peter, Heindrich, and Henry. I do not know the last names of any of the other individuals.

“I was given about $2500 in $50 bills which were contained in a money belt and three satchels containing false bottoms which contained a sizable amount of money, which I estimate to be around $35,000, although I was never told the exact amount and I did not count it at the time. These satchels were blue in color and made out of a canvas like material. I was given charge of the money for my group of four and at the time we arrived in the United States, I turned over one of these satchels to Neubauer to care for.

“I was also given four or five matches that were capable of producing secret writing. No one else in my group got any of these matches. I was told that after we became settled and located in the United States I was to communicate by use of these matches with Lt Kappe in Berlin. The communication was to be effected by using a mail drop location in Lisbon, Portugal, which was furnished to me in secret writing on a white handkerchief. This address, which

1554

I do not know from my own memory, was to be produced by putting the handkerchief in ammonia nad holding it up to the light. There was also an address of a relative of George Dasch’s on this handkerchief in secret writing, which I could use to get in touch with Dasch in case I needed assistance from him or any member of his group. This man, ra relative of Dasch would have no other information but Dasche’s address.

“It is my understanding that he was given a similar handkerchief containing the mail drop address and the address of my wife, as above, both written in secret writing, to enable him to communicate with Germany or to get in touch with me in case he need ed assistance. I was told to mention Kappe’s name in the secret text hand writing on the letter sent to this Lisbon address and to put a message for Kappe in the secret writing using the matches furnished. I do not know the method used to develop this secret writing. We were also shown eight wooden boxes in Berlin, four of which were to be taken by each group.

“I might mention here that we were given very wide discretion in the use of the money and in the use of the explosives contained in the wooden boxes, although we were told that we might be able to get help in the United States from individuals there who were sympathetic to the German cause. Although this too was left to our discretion. It was suggested that we might obtain jobs in the United States.

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“Besides the money furnished to us as we left Berlin, I was to receive my regular salary that I had been getting from the propaganda ministry, which was 600 marks a month. This was to be credited to my accout in Berlin. This is the usual arrangement for persons called up for active service.

“After all of the individuals met in Kappe’s apartment, we were given our money and other articles and proceeded to Lorients, France by railroad in the company of Lt. Kappe.”

Mr. Cox. May we relieve this witness? He will have a lot of testimony later on. We would like to have Mr. Cutler continue the reading.

The President. Are there any objections?

Colonel Royall. No objection whatsoever.

The President. I think we will take a ten-minute recess before the reading is continued.

(Thereupon a short informal recess was taken, at the conclusion of which the following occurred:)

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The President. The commission is open. Proceed, please.

(The reading of the statement of the defendant Kerling was resumed as follows):

“Lorients is located north of the Bordeaux and is on the coast. After we arrived there we all went to the same hotel, the name of which I do not remember, and remained during the day.

“I might also mention that I had been furnished with a Draft Registration card and a Social Security card made out in the name of Edward J. Kelly.

“During the night of the same day we arrived in Lorients, my group of four were taken to the pier? and put aboard a submarine, the name of which I do not know, and it is my understanding that George Dasch and his group were to leave sometime later. After we arrived on the submarine, the captain told us that we would not be asked any questions. It was about a two or three week trip from Germany to the United States, during the time the submarine traveled most of the time on the surface and during which time we did not see any other vessles.

“Upon nearing the United States the Captain said that he would land somewhere near Jacksonville, Florida, and he and I examined a sea chart of the Florida coast and picked out a spot where we landed and where the explosives were later buried. The submarine approached to within a short distance of the shore, passing a lighthouse on the way. My group of four and a sailor from the submarine came ashore in

1557

a rubber boat bringing with us the four boxes, three satchels containing money and articles of clothing, and a shovel to be used for burying the explosives.

“Immediately upon arriving on shore, the sailor was taken back to the submarine by means of the rubber boat.

“I examined the immediate vicinity where we landed to determine that there were no houses or people around and we then proceeded to bury the four boxes of explosives on the beach.

“Subsequent to my arrest and on the Thursday, June 25, 1942, I directed Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation to the spot where the explosives were buried and I was present during the time they were photographed and removed from this spot and identified them as boxes of explosives which were brought from Germany to the United States. I took this trip from New York to the beach near Jacksonville voluntary and of my own free will, signing a predated consent on June 24^th.”

Colonel Royall. You say June 24^th is that correct?

Mr. Cutler. On this statement there is written what looks to be June 29 and over the 9 is changed into a 4.

The President. Could anybody enlighten us on this?

Mr. Cox. The copy I have has June 27

A Member. We have a witness on the stand.

Mr. Cutler. Would the Court care to examine it?

The President. Is there any stipulation or agreement that can be reached on this?

1558

Mr. Cox. The waiver is signed the 24^th.

Colonel Royall. It says here that it was predated. That is the reason why it could hardly have been on the 24^th. It was signed later then predated.

A Member. Maybe it was the 25^th.

Colonel Royall. It could not be the 24^th.

The President. It reads: “signing a predated consent on” what looks like “June 24^th” to me. I think however you might get together on that.

The Judge Advocate General. This consent is apparently dated June 24.

The President. Here is the original.

A Member. Maybe the witness could give us some light?

Mr. Cox. Perhaps the witness can tell us what his understanding is.

Judge Advocate General. I think the 24^th is the date.

Mr. Cox. The witness can probably answer it.

Witness. This insert was put in there in my presence by Mr. Kerling, and he originally put in there June 29. This was on June 28, so I explained to him that that date could not be right, and he said it was the day before and changed the 9 to a 7. So he had June 27, as stated by him, the date that he made this insert.

The President. Is there any objection?

Colonel Royall. I will be glad to stipulate that the date is the 27^th.

Mr. Cox. It is all right; I do not think it is very material

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Colonel Royall. It may be, because he went down there afterward. That is the reason. It was signed after he went there. That is what I meant to say.

(The reading of the statement of the defendant Kerling was resumed as follows:)

“After we had buried the four boxes containing the explosives, I instructed one of the men to throw the shovel into the water, which was at low tide at the time. We then took off our swimming suits and started for Jacksonville Beach, Florida. At the time the dawn was just breaking, but I do not know what the hour was. We walked along the beah for what I would judge to be an hour or two and then arrived at Jacksonville Beach, and waited around there in our swimming suits until about 11 AM when we put our clothes on and caught a bus to Jacksonville, where we arrived about noon. This was on Wednesday, June 17, and Neubauer and I immediately separated from Haupt and Theil. Neubauer and I registered as Nichols and Kelly at the Seminole Hotel in Jacksonville and Haupt and Theil went to another hotel the name of which I do not know.

“During the afternoon on the same day Neubauer and I shopped for clothing and other necessary personal articles and we met Haupt by arrangement that evening. At this time, Haupt, Neubauer, and I agreed that Haupt and Theil would catch a train the next morning, Thursday, for Cincinnati and Theil would remain in Cincinnati and Haupt would then take a train to Chicago. Neubauer and

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and I were to wait one more day and leave Jacksonville by train for Cincinnati on Friday Morning, and on arriving in Cincinnati, Neubauer was to go on to Chicago while I was to meet Theil at 1:00pm on Saturday, June 20, in the restaurant of the Gibson Hotel.

“According to this arrangement, Theil and Haupt left the following morning and myself and Neubauer left at 8:00am on Friday, June 19. I might state that during the time we were in Jacksonville, I did not meet or contact anybody, nor were we met by anybody on the beach where the submarine landed us.

“We arrived in Cincinnati on the morning of Saturday, June 20, about nine AM and it had been determined that Neubauer was going on to Chicago that day. I do not know exactly where he was going to stay in Chicago, but he mentioned the Blackstone Hotel, and stated he wanted a hotel employing Negroes because they were not as sharp or curious as white people are. It was arranged between Neubauer and myself that on July 6, 1942, I was to be registered at the Knickerbocker Hotel in Chicago as Edward J. Kelly and that at 10 am on that date Neubauer would contact me by telephone and tell me where I could meet him and put me in touch with Haupt whose Chicago address was unknown to me.

“Upon our arrival in Cincinnati, Neubauer and I ate breakfast at the Gibson hotel, after having checked our bags at the railroad station. We then

1561

walked the streets of Cincinnati, attended a show and went to a barber shop. At one o’clock Neubauer went to eat and I met Theil in a restaurant in the Gibson Hotel. Theil did not tell me where he was staying but said he was living at a hotel under the name of William Thomas. After lunch, Theil left me and I met Neubauer at the post office located about a block from the Gibson hotel. We went to the ticket office where Neubauer got a ticket for Chicago on the New York Central. He was informed he could get on the train at nine pm that date, Saturday, June 20, and that the train would leave sometime later in the evening and arrive in Chicago at seven AM the next day. At this time Neubauer was in possession of Haupt’s telephone number in Chicago, but I do not know what the number was. I purchased two tickets for New York City on the New York Central Railroad for Theil and myself, and after we had purchased the tickets we met Theil by arrangement at 3:30PM in a bar opposite from the post office. We stayed at the bar until 5:00 PM when Theil went to get his belongings from the hotel and we then went to the railroad station separate where Theil and I boarded the train for New York about 6:00PM. I might state that during our time we were in Cincinnati we did not contact any individual and our only reason for going to Cincinnati was to avoid taking a train straight up the East Coast of the United States, since

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we were under the impression that passenger lists were checked and we might be questioned if we came up the coastline.

“Theil and I arrived in New York City on Sunday, June 20, and we immediately went to the commodore hotel where we registered, which was about noontime. I used the name of Edward Kelly and Theil used the name of William Thomas. I had previously mentioned to Neubauer that we might go to the Commodore Hotel to stay. I told him I would use the name Kelly.

We slept during the afternoon and at five or six at dinner and then took a subway to Astoria to see Helmut Leinert. I have known him for about ten years but I do not know his exact address in Astoria. When we arrived at Leinert’s Theil went to the door and called him out and Leinert was very surprised to see us. I told him I had been to Mexico instead of Germany and Theil told him he had been living in Chicago. I asked him about my wife who was living in New York and working for a family whose name I do not know, but who lived on the East Side. I asked Leinert if he would contact her and arrange for me to see her the next evening at the Shelton Hotel, Lexington Avenue and 49^th street.

“We stayed with Leinert until nine or ten o’clock and then returned to the Commodore Hotel and retired.

“About noon on Monday, June 22, Theil and myself arose and after eating went to the movies and then

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separated and walked around New York. I met Theil for dinner at a German restaurant located on the west side of Lexington Avenue near 44^th street. After dinner we returned to the hotel, read the papers and then went to bed.

“On Tuesday, June 23, we stayed at the hotel until about noon and then we separated and went out and walked the town.

“That evening I met Leinert by arrangement at the Hotel Pennsylvania and we walked to Times Square where we ate dinner at the Crossroads Inn. From this place Leinert called my wife at her place of employment and made arrangements for me to meet her that same evening at Hotel Shelton.

“After dinner, I left Leinert and met Theil at the corner of 44^th and Lexington Avenue, at which time he was with an individual whom he introduced to me as Toni. We talked for a few minutes and had a drink and thereafter I separated from Theil and Toni and was on my way to meet my wife when I was apprehended by Special Agents from the FBI.

“At the time of my apprehension, we were attempting to get located in a place which we could use for a hideout and in this connection I had in the back of my mind a farm in Pennsylvania. We had no specific plans at this time as to any sabotage that we were going to commit, it having been left to our discretion in Germany as to what we would do. It was intended by us that we should get located first and then return

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to the beach in Florida to get the explosives and put them in a hideout and at the same time we could commence our sabotage. This was all in accordance with instructions I had received while in Germany.

“At the time of my landing I intended to follow my instructions and to sabotage power lines and other facilities that might be suitable, but in the course of my stay I came to the conclusion that our orders were made impossible to fulfill, and the means of transportation were too insecure (gas shortage rationing). I might state generally that I had asked Kappe before I left Germany about getting back to Germany in case we ran into trouble here, and he said it would not be possible to get back by submarine but should try to get to Chile or the Argenetine.

“With the exception of Leinert and Toni, no member of the group tried to contact any individual in the United States.

“In addition to the above, I might state that prior to my last ship to Germany in 1940, I called at the Germany Consulate in New York and discussed my proposed trip with them. At this time, Mr. Maisch of the Consulate Office offered to pay my passage to Germany by the way of Lisbon Portugal but inasmuch as I had sufficient money to pay my passage, I refused his offer. After my departure from the United States and my arrival in Lisbon, I was advanced part of my passage fare in Lisbon by some person after my arrival in Berlin I was

1565

paid the full amount. While in Germany I was not a member of the Nazi Party nor was I a member prior to my departure for Germany. While in Germany and while employed by the Propaganda Ministry, I was not a member of the German Labor Front.

“I have read this statement consisting of Nine Pages and have initialed each page, and it is all true to the best of my knowledge. I have affixed my signature to the last page to signify the truth of this statement.

“(signed) E. Kerling

“WITNESSED:

“John A. Holtzman.

“D. M. Brightman.

“Special Agents, FBI, NYC”

Question by Mr. Cox

Q Mr. Holtzman, did Kerling make a subsequent statement?

A Yes, sir, he did.

Q In your presence?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did he state that he was making that statement freely and voluntarily?

Colonel Royall. I object to the leading.

Mr. Cox. I withdraw the question.

Questions by Mr. Cox

Q Is this the copy of the statement he made?

A This is the original, sir.

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Q Is it signed by Kerling?

A Yes, Sir, it is.

Q Is each page initialed by him?

A Yes, sir.

Q Was that statement voluntarily made?

A Yes, sir.

Mr. Cox. I offer in evidence as Prosecution Exhibit 191 the statement of the defendant Kerling made June 30, 1942, and signed on July 1, 1942.

Colonel Royall. The defendant Kerling objects, in addition to the objection made by the other defendants, on the same ground as we objected to the other statement. I assume of course that the commission will rule in the same way on it.

The President. Will you please repeat the objection?

Colonel Royall. It was on the ground that it had not been affirmatively shown that it was voluntarily given. The commission has already ruled adversely to that contention.

The President. If there is no objection on the part of any member of the commission, the objection is not sustained.

(Statement of Defendant Kerling made

on June 30, 1942, and signed July 1,

1942, was offered as Exhibit P-191.)

Mr. Cox. May Mr. Cutler read this statement, too?

The President. If you please.

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(The statement of the defendant Edward John Kerling dates June 30, 1942, was read as follows:)

EXHIBIT P-191

“New York, New York

June 30, 1942

“I, Edward John Kerling, make the following free and voluntary statement to M. R. Griffin, D. M. Brightman, and John A. Holtzman, whom I know to be special agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, for the purpose of supplementing and correcting in part, a signed statement given by me to Special Agents Brightman and Holtzman on June 28, 1942. This statement is also made freely and voluntarily with out any promises or duress having been used, and I know that it may be used subsequently to a court of law;

“In 1940, I obtained a German passport from the German Consulate General, New York City, inasmuch as my old German passport had at that time expired. The old passport had a Spanish visa on it, which was transferred to my new passport, and I also obtained a Portuguese Visa on the new passport. This passport was used by me in returning to Germany in 1940 aboard the SS EXCHORDIA. When I arrived in Portugal, I was successful in obtaining an Italian Visa on this passport. I have never made any attempt to obtain United States citizenship, but have always traveled on a German passport as a German citizen.

“In June of 1928, I became a member of the NSDAP or the Nazi party. As a party member I wore a uni-

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form from 28 to 29 when I was in Germany, to indicate my Part Membership. In 1932 my wife joined the Nazi party and both she and I are at the present time, still members of the Party. I have never held any office or rank in the Nazi party.

“When Lt. Kappe organized the school for training in sabotage he told us that we would be called the John David Pastorius group and that this name would serve as a code word between members of the group. This group was to be formed along similar lines with the Strosstrup or Commando Corps.

“After I had finished school, I became a German soldier by signing a form made out in my name, Edward John Kerling, which stated in effect that now I was a soldier in the German Reich and would have to live up to the duties of a soldier and maintain secrecy of my mission. I signed a pledge but did not take an oath to this effect.

“In addition to the information which I gave in the signed statement of June 28, 1942, in connection with the training I received in Germany I wish to state the following.

“We were instructed that in case we ran out of the explosive material furnished to us in Germany and brought over by us in the submarine, that we could make an explosive, using a mixture of chlorate and sugar of which could be purchased commercially. We were also instructed in how to make blasting caps or detonators in case our supply ran out. In addition, we were taught how to make what is known to me as a Molotov Cocktail, by

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placing sulphuric acid and gasoline in a bottle and putting a piece of paste of chlorate and sugar on the outside. When thrown and broken this was capable of causing a fire.

“We were also shown how to make a thermite bomb by putting a mixture of dry plaster of Paris and aluminum power in a container and using a mixture of sugar and chlorate for purposes of igniting this. A fuse was to be attached to the sugar and chlorate mixture and this would produce a very hot fire bomb.

“I might ass that I personally considered these homemade bombs too dangerous to prepare.

“It was also explained to us how we could sabotage railroads by attacking the control system on the tracks by means of explosives and the railroad cars by putting abrasive material into the wheel boxes. In this connection, we were taken through a railroad yard in Berlin, and the various vital points capable of being sabotaged were pointed out to us, along with the method of attack.

“It was further explained to us how to sabotage a canal lock, by attacking the hinges of the lock, and in connection with this instruction we were taken to a canal in Berlin. It was also explained to us that it was possible to disable a canal by sinking a barge or ship laden with cement in this canal and in this connection, the Ohio canal was mentioned to us.

“It was also explained to us that we could disable airplanes by placing stones between the cylinders.

“We were also instructed as to the methods of

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damaging the power equipment of the various aluminum plants. In this connection, we were taken on at our of the I. G. Farbenindustrie Plant at Biesterfeld, Germany, where the vital spots in the power plant were pointed out to us.

“We were also shown a small model of a bridge and it was pointed out to us how we could most effectively damage this bridge, but at the same time, it was explained to us that it would be impossible for a group of our size to effectively destroy a bridge. We were told, however, how we could damage the rails of the Hell Gate Bridge in New York City, but warned that this would be very difficult, because of the fact that this bridge was well guarded, and should not try a job like it.

“I wish to explain that the John David Pastorius Group, had, as a purpose, to be attained by sabotage the following:

“Slowdown and destruction of National Defense Industries and means of transportation. Tying up troops to guard the various facilities, and causing uneasiness among the people by our sabotage.

“In order to accomplish these purposes, it would be necessary for us to show, by the nature of our work, that sabotage was being committed and that the damage was not the result of accidents. As I have previously explained, only the general outline was given to us, of the damage we should do and although we were thoroughly instructed in methods of damaging various facilities, the actual campaign was left to the discretion of the groups them-

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selves.

“On page 4 of voluntary statement made by me on June 28, 1942, I mentioned that I inquired about similar groups of sabotage agents being sent to the United States and was told that our group was the first of its kind. In addition to this, Lt Kappe mentioned to me on one occasion at least that he would like to come to the United States and Reinhold Barth expressed a similar desire. Barth was a friend of Kappe’s and came to the school at Brandenburg, on one or two occasions with Lt Kappe. He also attended several functions of a social nature with Lt Kappe, and the John David Pastorius Group.

“Kappe also spoke of setting up a radio transmitting station in the United States for the use of this group in communicating with Germany, although this too, was never carried into the formative stage, and all references to other groups of agents was very indefinite in my presence.

“On page 5 of the statement of June 28, 1942, I mentioned that I had given one bag of money to Herman Neubauer at the time that we landed on the beach outside of Jacksonville, Florida. Since making that statement, my memory has been refreshed and now I recall that I gave this satchel to Herbert Haupt. This satchel was about one half the size of each of the two that I had.

“Further, since making my statement of June 28, 1942, I have also been able to recall that in addition

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to a Portuguese mail drop address on a handkerchief given me by Lt Kappe, and in addition to the name and address of the relative of Dasch’s, appearing on this handkerchief, there was also contained thereon, in secret writing, the name and address of Karl Krepper, c/o Gene Frey, RR#2, box 40F, Rahway, New Jersey, and the name and address of Walter Froehlich to the Group, to be used in case it became necessary at any time to contact any particular member of the group.

“I have already explained that the name of George Dasch’s relative was put on the handkerchief so that I could get in touch with Dasch or his group at any time, and it is my understanding that the name and address of Helmut Leinert, in Astoria, was put in secret writing on Dasch’s handkerchief, so that his group could get in touch with me or any member of my group. I had furnished Dasch with this name and address while we were still in Germany, and it was at that time, written on his handkerchief.

“After Thiel and I arrived in New York City, I talked to Leinert on two occasions, prior to my apprehension and told him that I had just arrived in this country from Germany and told him what my purpose in being here was. I also gave him $50, because he had been sick and needed money. Through him, I was also able to contact Hedy Engelmann and told her that I had returned from Germany.

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“It is my understanding that Leinert was to leave on a Portuguese boat on Saturday, June 27, 1940, to be taken with a group of other German Nationals to Portugal and there exchanged for a group of American citizens stranded in Germany.

“On Tuesday afternoon, June 23, 1942, Leinert accompanied me to Newark, New Jersey, where I made an attempt to verify the address of Krepper, which had been furnished to me by Lt Kappe. He told me that in case I needed any help in the United States, Krepper might be in a position to furnish such help. At the time, I was primarily interested in locating a hideout, and I would have contacted Krepper for assistance if I had been unsuccessful in location a hideout myself. Upon contacting Krepper, I was to write the code word ‘Pastor Kaiser’, which would indicate to him that I came from Germany for Lt Kappe and the he should give any assistance he could.

“After attempting to verify the address of Krepper, Leinert and I took a cab to Irvington, New Jersey, where I made an attempt to contact Robert Lamm, whom I have known for about four years. I wanted to find out from him generally, what was going on in the United States so that I would not be tripped up for a failure to comply with any regulations. I also wanted to become familiar with new American customs, and for this purpose I also intended to peruse the newspapers maintained in the files at the New York public library.

“I have read the supplemental statement consisting

1574

of three and one-half pages, and it is all true and complete to the best of my knowledge and belief. I have initialed each page and signed my name to the end to indicate the truth of the statement.

“Edward John Kerling

“July 1- 42

“Witnessed by:

“John A. Holtzman,

FBI N.Y.C.

“D. M. Brightman,

Special Agent F.B.I. N.Y.C.

“Mr. Griffin,

Special Agent F.B.I. N.Y.C.”

Mr. Cox. With the permission of the commission, may the Judge Advocate General continue the questioning of this witness on a separate part of the inquiry?

Colonel Royall. No objection.

(At this point the Judge Advocate General returned to the courtroom.)

Questions by the Judge Advocate General:

Q I show you exhibit P-174 and ask you if you ever showed that to the defendant Kerling and had a conversation to him about it.

A This exhibit P-174, being a blue canvas bag, was shown to Kerling in my presence on July 1, 1942, at which time he said it was his own bag which he had been given Lt Kappe and in which he understood Kappe had placed a certain amount of money in a secret compartment in the bottom of the bag.

Q How did he know that? Did he tell you that?

A He recognized the bag as his own property.

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Q I show you exhibit P-175. Did you have any conversation with him in regard to that bag?

A Yes, sire; I did.

Q What was the substance of that conversation?

A On the same date as at the same time we talked about the other bag, Kerling said, in my presence, that this bag was similar to the one that Kappe had furnished him which he understood there was a certain about of money contained in a false bottom of the bag.

Q And those are the bags you testified the money was in?

A I am sorry, sir; I made no such testimony.

Q Did you later see Kerling?

A Yes, sir.

Q When was that?

A I saw him again on July 2^nd and July 3^rd.

Q Going back before that; did you go to Florida with Kerling?

A Yes, sir; I did.

Q Who was with you?

A On the trip to Florida, which was on June 24, besides Kerling and myself were Special Agents G. R. McSwain, D.M. Brightman, and M.R. Griffin.

Q Will you relate the circumstance of that trip?

A Yes, sir.

Colonel Royall. May it please the commission, we wish to enter and objection to any testimony as to any search or conduct in Florida, on the ground that it affirmatively appears from the testimony that the waiver which relates to

1576

that Florida trip was signed after the trip and not before.

The President. Do I understand that you make an objection to this?

Colonel Royall. Yes, sir; that is correct.

The President. If there is no objection on the part of any member present, the Commission rules that the objection is not sustained.

Questions by the Judge Advocate General:

Q Proceed.

A On June 24, 1942, at about 2PM in the afternoon, the group of agents that I mention, including myself, and the defendant Edward Kerling, boarded the Silver Meteor of the Seaboard line and arrived in Jacksonville, Florida, at about 8:30AM on June 25. at the time of our arrival Assistant Director E.J. Connelley was at the station, along with a group of Miami agents, and at that time Kerlind, Mr. Connelly, Mr. McSwain, and myself were in a car driven by Special Agent Lindsau of the Miami Office, and we were proceeding to Ponta Verda, Florida, and from there south on route 140 for a distance of about 4 miles. At that place Kerling said that we had better get out and walk along the beach proper in order that he could identify the spot where the explosives were buried. We did this, and, from this point walked south about two or three miles along the beach examining various places on the beach at Kerling’s direction for the spot where the explosives were buried. During this walk Kerling said that he was looking for a group of three palm stumps which he had used to mark the spot at the time he originally buried the explosives.

1577

after going down the beach for about two or three miles Kerling said that he now remembered that after burying the explosives he had gone to the road, route 140, along a barbed wire fence that extended out from the place where the explosives were buried in the direction of the road, and when he got to the road he marked the spot on the road by an old foundation, a concrete foundation of some sort.

When Kerling gave us that information we proceeded to the road and looked for this old foundation which was alongside the barbed wire fence running perpendicularly to the road, and followed the fence out toward the beach and arrived at a spot a few yards north of the fence, about 100 yards from the water’s edge and at a place where three palm stumps were located. Kerling at first rather doubted that this was the place, but after examining it he said definitely that that was the spot He then said that he wanted to show us the explosives before somebody else found them and got hurt by digging them up and handling them.

After Kerling had definitely identified the spot, Special Agent Parsons and Mr Dunlop, a photographer for the Bureau, were summoned to the place and photographs were taken by Mr. Dunlop, after which Parsons removed the explosives from the hole and at the time they were exposed Kerling identified them, four boxes of them, as well as a pair of gray woolen socks, as articles buried by him on the night of June 17 or the morning of June 18.

I helped take those boxes to a car driven by Special Agent in Charge R G Danner and Mr Parsons and they left going northward on Route 140, presumably for Jacksonville, Florida.

1578

After that Kerling, McSwain, Mr. Connelly, and Mr. Lindsay and myself proceeded to Jacksonville, and that afternoon Kerling, myself, McSwain, Brightman, and Griffin took a train to New York and arrived there at about 1 o’clock the next day, June 26.

1579

Judge Advocate General. Cross examine.

Colonel Royall. This cross examination is on behalf of the defendant Kerling.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Questions by Colonel Royall:

Q Mr. Holtzman, over how long a period of time did you talk with the defendant Kerling before this written statement was prepared?

A Will you be specific as to which statement you are referring to, please?

Q Let us talk about the first one, then.

A The first one?

Q Yes.

A I talked to Kerling about the facts in this case specifically on June 24^th and again of June 27^th and he signed the statement June 28^th.

Q Then on the second day, what were the circumstances about that?

A That information was obtained on June 28^th, 29^th—not 29^th, because I was not there on that date, June 28^th, 30^th, and signed on July t he 1^st.

Q Were those statements prepared after you had obtained the information, that it, on the day they were actually signed, if you recall about it?

A in both instances the actual preparation of the statements by the stenographer took place the day before they were signed.

Q Now Mr. Holtzman, the defendant Kerling told you that his father had served in the first world war?

1580

A Yes, sir.

Q As an officer?

A Yes, sir, he did.

Q that his relatives were in the present war?

A I do not remember anything like that, no, sir.

Q Did he not tell you he had a brother-in-law in the present war?

A He said his brother-in-law was not a member of the armed forces in Germany.

Q He told you that he went immediately upon his arrival in germany and got work with the Army?

A He said he got work as a civilian employee with the Army, yes.

Q Did he then get work with the Propaganda Ministry?

A Yes, sir.

Q And that he never applied for United States Citizenship papers, but elected to remain a German National, did he not?

A Yes, sir.

Q He told you that before he entered the enterprise he took a pledge as a member of the German army?

A That took place, according to him, after the training was over.

Q But I mean, before he started any trip to America?

A That is correct.

Q He told you that he went into this enterprise with the understanding that it was to be performed in uniform, in a manner similar to the commando raids?

A He said that that was his first impression, but that

1581

the impression was later changed by the subsequent events while in Germany.

Q I say, that was his impression when he first went into it?

A When he was originally contacted by Kappe, that was his impression, yes, sir.

Q And he told you that he was a member of the Nazi Party and that after he had once entered upon that, with that understanding that it was to be in uniform, he had no choice, no privilege of turning back, didn’t he?

A No, sir, he did not say exactly that.

Q I mean, in substance he said that?

A In substance he said that after he had originally agreed to do this that he was afraid of appearing yellow – I think that was the word he used—in the eyes of his countrymen and therefore went on through it.

Q Now he told you that this was a sabotage plan, did he not? That is the word he used in referring to it?

A He used that word during the course of our conversations, yes.

Q And he never used any other word as a description of it, did he?

A I do not recall any other word that was described, no, sir.

Q He told you that he had specific instructions not to use explosives so as to kill or injure and person?

A He said he was given those instructions, yes, sir.

Q He also told you that he was the only member of his group that had these matches for the purpose of communication

1582

with Lisbon, did he not.

A That is correct, yes.

Q He also told you that upon his arrival in America and learning of conditions here that he found it impossible to carry out his plan on account of gas rationing and other similar restrictions, did he not?

A The First time that he made particular reference to that fact was when he read this statement over and inserted that in the concluding paragraph.

Colonel Royall. I believe that is all. Let me ask one more.

Question by Colonel Royall:

Q The defendant Kerling never at any time in all his conversations with you inferred or stated that he was other than entirely loyal to Germany and to his obligation as a German soldier and citizen, did he?

A I would like to have that question read back, if you please.

Q Yes, sir.

Reporter (reading)

“Question: The defendant Kerling never at any time in all his conversations with you inferred or stated that he was other than entirely loyal to Germany and to his obligation as a German soldier and citizen, did he?”

A He never made any other inferences, no, sir.

Colonel Royall. That is all

Colonel Ristine. No questions

Attorney General. May I be permitted to ask a few questions?

1583

The President. Certainly.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q Did Kerling say to you whom he had contacted after coming to the United States?

A Yes, sir, he did tell us who he had contacted?.

Q And who did he say that he had seen?

A He said he had seen Helmut Leiner and Hedwig Engemann.

Q When did he see those two persons?

A He saw Leiner first on Sunday the day he arrived in New York. That was June 21^st.

Q Where?

A He went to his home in Astoria in the company of Thiel.

Q Leiner’s home?

A Yes, sir. He went to Leiner’s home with Thiel on Sunday, June 21^st.

Q And did he say what he said to Leiner?

A He said he was desirous of getting in touch with his wife and also with Hedwig Engemann.

Colonel Royall. May it please the Commission, I do not want to object, but all that is fully covered in the statement which has already been introduced and I respectfully suggest it is a repetition.

Attorney General. I think it is clarifying. I do not think the statement made it clear.

Colonel Royall. It is only a suggestion.

Attorney General. It wont take very long.

1584

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q Did he say whether or not he saw Mrs. Kerling?

A He said he had made plans to see her, but that the plans were never carried out because of his arrest.

Q What did he say to Leiner?

A He told me he advised Leiner he had returned from Germany and that he assumed that Leiner knew why he was there. He told him he was on a mission from the German Government.

Q Did he say why Leiner assumed why he was here?

A Because he told him he was on a mission for the German Government.

Q Did he contact anybody else.

A Yes, sir. He contacted Hedwig Engemann.

Q What did he say to her?

A According to Kerling, he told Hedwig Engemann that he had returned from Germany, that he was on a mission for the German Government, and when she pressed him for his reason for coming here he also told here that he would like to have her find him an apartment in New York and stay with him there for a few months and that he would later like to have her live with him on a farm that he intended to locate.

Q Did he tell her why he wanted to locate a farm or did he tell you why?

A I didn’t question him in that particular respect.

Q Did he tell you why he wanted to locate a farm?

A Yes, he told me why he wanted to locate a farm.

Q What was the reason?

A He said he wanted to have a hideout and he wanted to furnish Kappe with an address where Kappe could get in

1585

touch with him.

Q Did he contact anybody else, so far as he told you?

A On one occasion he contacted a man by the name of Tony, whose last name was unknown to him. This was in the presence of Thiel. Tony seemed to be a friend of Thiel.

Q He didn’t know who Tony was?

A No, sir, he did not know who Tony was.

Q Did he say anything about the conversations he had with the three other men in his group while in America?

A He said that when they were in Jacksonville, immediately after their arrival, they made plans where they could later meet in Chicago.

Q You spoke of Kerling having taken an oath, as I understood.

Colonel Royall. A pledge.

Attorney General. A pledge.

Questions by the Attorney General

Q A pledge was taken with respect to whom, with respect to what? What did he say about a pledge?

A In the statement the pledge was mentioned. In effect the pledge is that – which Kerling signed—is that he is now a member of the German armed forces and as such is required to perform the duties and maintain the secrecy of his mission as a German Soldier.

Q Did he say whether or not that pledge was given to the other members of the group?

A He said that the other members of the group signed some sort of paper but he didn’t know whether it was a similar pledge or whether it pertained to the reimbursement they were

1586

to receive for their jobs.

Q Did he say whether or not the other members of the group told him what was the nature of that pledge?

A He denied that the other members had told him.

Q Had told him?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did he say to you how he was dressed when he landed?

A Yes, sir, he did.

Q How was he dressed?

A He said that as they came ashore from the rubber boat he was dressed in a pair of swimming trunks, green, a fatigue jacket, a gray fatigue jacket, and a campaign hat with a German insignia on it.

Q And then he changed into what kind of clothes?

A As the German sailors left with the boat Kerling said he put his cap and fatigue jacket aboard the rubber boat and after burying the explosives he put on his civilian clothes.

Q Did he say whether or not those civilian clothes had been worn in America by him?

A Those civilian clothes were shown to Kerling, and although I do not remember questioning him about whether they had been worn in America they all bore American trademarks that is, his suit did.

Attorney General. That is all

The President. Any questions by any member of the commission?

The witness is excused.

(The witness left the stand.)

Attorney General. Mr. Parsons.

1587

Lt. Meakin. This witness has been sworn.

Colonel Munson. You are reminded that you are still under oath having been sworn in before.

Mr. Parsons. Yes, sir.

D. J. PARSONS

was recalled as a witness for the prosecution and, having been previously duly sworn testified further as follows:

Colonel Royall. May it please the Commission, it is our intention to object to this evidence on behalf of all defendants, solely on the ground that it was obtained by illegal search. I think the commission has passed on that adversely to our position. Therefore there is no necessity for me to argue it to the commission. I make it because we think it is a sound objection.

The President. I am not cognizant of your making that particular objection before.

Colonel Royall. Well, sire, the reason I had was that I did object to the questions asked the preceding witness as to what happened on the trip to Florida. The ground of that was stated that it was an illegal search and seizure and I might add the additional ground of requiring the witness to incriminate himself. I do not desire to press the point to the commission. If the commission has made up its mind, I do not want to argue further.

We would, however, like to have it understood in the record if the commission does overrule our objection that we have an objection to each of these articles without repeating it. If the commission will make a ruling on that, I have one more remark to make about it.

1588

Attorney General. I have no remarks to make. I understand t he commission has already ruled on a similar matter, and I should assume that they would rule on this the same way. There is no particular reason to argue it again.

A Member. These are offered In evidence now?

Attorney General. I am about to offer them.

A Member. You are about to offer them?

Attorney General Yes.

A Member. I understand, and he objects to those being offered in evidence?

Attorney General. Yes.

The President. I take it you are objecting to all of the articles that were found on the beach in Florida.

Colonel Royall. That is correct.

The President. Without objection on the part of any member of the Commission, the objection is not sustained.

Colonel Royall. May it please the Commission, I desire to make this further statement, without waiving in any way my objection. It is not my desire to require any undue delay in the development of this evidence, and to the extent that the Attorney General desires to do so it is agreeable with the defendants to shorten this testimony, either by reference to the previous testimony of this witness in the description of the explosives or in any other manner that will save time.

Attorney General. I appreciate that very much and I will certainly avail myself of that very generous offer.

The President. Will you pardon me for just one moment.

Attorney General. I will ask the reporter to mark these photographs for identification.

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DIRECT EXAMINATION

(Photographs of various articles found

on beach in Florida were thereupon

marked P-192 to P-198, both inclusive,

and P-200 to p-209, both inclusive

for identification.)

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q Mr. Parsons, did you go to Florida with the defendant Kerling and the other defendants?

A Yes, sir, I did.

Q Did Kerling identify the boxes of explosives which you found there?

A Yes, sir, four boxes.

Q And were the boxes marked for you identification?

A They were marked by Mr. Connelly in my presence.

Q How were they marked?

A On the outside, on the wooden box, they were marked in pencil by Mr. Connelley immediately upon removal from the hole.

Q What did you do with them?

A I transported them to a garage in Jacksonville.

Q And what did you do with them after that or what was done with them?

A I maintained them in my custody until approximately 5 in the evening of June 25^th, at which time I opened the boxes and made an inventory of the items within.

Q Is this one of the boxes with these two red crosses on it that is on the table here, this wooden box I am touching?

A Yes, sir.

Q And is this the tin container that was inside of it?

A That was within that box, yes.

1590

Q What happened to the boxes then, when you opened them, where were they taken?

A The boxes and the contents were removed to the Federal building in Jacksonville.

Q Were they opened?

A They were previously opened.

Q They had been previously opened?

A They were opened in the garage.

Q Were they then given to you to list the contents?

A Yes, sir.

Q Did you make an inventory of the container?

A I did.

Q Have you got it with you?

A I have.

Q Will you produce it?

A Yes, sir.

Q Let me ask you this. Will you look at the inventory and say whether or not it contains items similar to those items that you testified to with respect to the landing on Long Island?

A It does. With the exception of one addition and several minor variations the materials were identical to those recovered in New York.

Q Were the materials photographed in your presence?

A They were.

1591

Questions by Attorney General:

Q I show you exhibit marked P-192 to P-198. What are those photographs? You do not need to go through each one; tell me in a general way.

A These photographs were taken both at the scene of the recovery of the boxes on the beach and also in the garage at the time the boxes were opened and the items inventoried.

Q I show you exhibits 200-2009 inclusive. Are these photographs of one the contents and of the place where they were found?

A There is one photograph here of the spot on the beach where they were found. The remaining photographs are pictures of the items contained within the four boxes recovered.

Q Are they marked with any description on the back?

A Yes, these have marks of identification.

Q Is there any description of what they are?

A Oh, no, sir; these is no description as to what the contents are.

Q If you have the contents inventoried, will you read it to the court without detailing it? Just state the inventory itself.

A “Box No. 1 marked for identifications by E. J. Connelly, 6/25/42, as found.

“One wood box.

“Two metal strips outside.”

Then this goes on to say, “Rope around same for handle purposes.”

“One metal container places within wood box and sealed by soldering.”

“18 blocks of TNT (same as previous recovery of

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6/13/42”

“Box No. 2 marked for identification by E. J. Connelley 6/25/42, as found.”

Attorney General. It is agreed through the courtesy of the counsel for the defendant that the inventory may go into the record with out its being read in detail, if the commission approved. Therefore, I offer this inventory in evidence as describing the boxes and the contents of the boxes.

Colonel Royall. There is nothing in it except descriptive matter? There is no narrative matter in it?

Attorney General. No. I notice seven pencil marks on the inventory.

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q Are those supposed to be corrections?

A Yes, those are corrections that I made immediately after this was typed, because of slight errors made in typing.

Q Then for the reporter, the inventory is as corrected in pencil, is that right?

A Yes, sir.

Attorney General. I offer this in evidence. May we have it marked for identification?

The President. Will Colonel Ristine make sure he has no objection?

Colonel Ristine. We have no objection to this matter.

(The inventory referred to

was marked exhibit P-210

and offered into evidence.)

(Exhibit P-210 is as follows:)

“EXHIBIT P-210

“Examined in garage of R. A. Alt, 2146 St. Johns Ave.

“6/25/42 by D J Parsons. Pictures taken by J. R. Dunlop.

1593

“Present R. G. Tanner

“Box #1 Marked for identification by E. J. Connelley 6/25/42 as found

“1 – Wood Box

2 – Metal Strips outside

Rope around same for handle purposes, piece of what appears to be torn from a towel used in center to carry by, wrapped around rope at center. Box packed with excelsior between wood and metal container, also one piece of corrugated paper used.

1- Metal container placed within wood box and sealed by soldering (material sheet steel and galvanized.)

16 – Blocks of TNT (same as previous recovery of 6/13/42) These individually wrapped in paper not tied of bound. Packed with excelsior. Each individual block examined by D. J. Parsons in my presence and are identical in appearance and apparently in substance.

Wood box is 8 1/8” X 11” X 21 1/8”

Metal container is 7 1/8” X 9 7/8” X 19 5/8”

“Box #2 Marked for identification by E. J. Connelley 6/25/42 as found.

“1 – Wood Box (Same as box #1)

2 Metal strips – Rope for handle – same as #1 also rag around rope for carrying same as described under #1.

1 – Metal container in wood box same as described under #1

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“Packing the same as described under #1

18 Blocks TNT (same as described under #1 Each block examined in my presence by D. J. Parsons and all appear to be identical in appearance and substance.

Size as under #1 above.

“Box #3 Marked for identification by E. J. Connelley 6/25/42 as found.

“1 Wood Box. 2 metal strips. Rope for handle, piece of rag for carrying, excelsior packing, corrugated paper as described under Box #1 above. This Box has an “X” in red on all sides and ends.

“1 – Metal Container Same as described under Box #1.

Contained in Metal container.

1 – Small cardboard box containing:

4 Blocks, made to resemble coal and presumably made up of part TNT Block.

1 Coil of Detonating fuse (White and orange)

4 Pieces of small coils of Safety fuse (Black)

10 Blocks TNT same as described under Box #1 2.2 lbs. Each)

“Each block examined by D. J. Parons in my presence and apparently identical.

“Box #4 marked by E. J. Connelley for identification as found.

1 – Wood Box, 2 metal strips on same, rope for carrying, piece of cloth on rope for hand piece, all the same as described under Box #1.

1595

“This box marked on all sides and ends with ‘XX’ in red.

Excelsior and 1 piece of corrugated paper used in packing.

1 – Metal Container the same as described under Box #1

“Contained within the metal container and packed with excelsior.

1 – Small round paper box about one pint and held with black tape.

Contains what appears to be ‘Thermite.’

1 – Small cardboard box containing:

10 Clocklike mechanisms serial numbers:

K-129-114-137-127

K-125-123-143-141

K-120128

10 Caps for this clocklike mechanism.

10 Buttons also for this mechanism.

1 – Small Box with following items and containers in same:

1 Small box with 10 brass and plastic devices marked ’70 Minuten’

5 Leather case, pen and pencil sets, with same internal mechanism as those previously recovered 6/15/42. These are marked by small paper tags.

3 – marking 1-13 hours

1-- “ 6-7 “

1-- “ 2 ¾--3 ¾ hours

1 Small box filled with what appears to be talcum

1596

powder and used as protector in packing:

11 small glass sealed vials with a rubber casing, possibly sulphuric acid.

1 – Small box containing the following items or containers:

A – 1 Small paper bag containing:

10 fuse lighters

(Marking on bag ‘C. Heinrich Anton Dulsburg Reissanjundor 6.1939’)

B – 1 Small paper bag same as above with same markings containing 15 fuse lighters.

C – 1 Small bag, plain, Containing 50 electric match devices.

D – 1 Small bag plain, Containing 25 brass tubes, small, threaded at one end.

E – 1 Small bag plain, Containing:

Marking on bag ‘5 UB S Kapch’

‘5 UB No. 8 Kapch’

5 Dummy blasting caps.

5 Dummy Detonators

F – 25 Electric blasting caps.

G – 15 Wood Blocks approximately 2” X 3”, presumably containing blasting caps.

H – 10 Wood Blocks approximately 1” X 3” presumably containing detonators.

I – 1 Envelope containing:

1597

“5 Wood blocks about 1”x4’ (with red line across block) presumably containing special igniters.”

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q Referring to that inventory, I think you said there was one substantial item found which was not similar to any

of the items in your fist inventory; is that correct?

A Yes, sir, that is.

Q What was it?

A One paper can that contains a mixture, which was put on the inventory as having the appearance of Thermite.

Q Have you a photograph of the paper can?

A Yes, sir. The photograph marked P-207 for identification is a photograph of the paper can and its contents.

Q I show you an object, which the photograph seems to represent and ask you if that is the object itself.

A This is the object itself, yes, sir.

Q Will you describe to the Commission what the object is?

A I subsequently opened this can and found that the material contained therein, though it has the appearance of

Thermite, is actually an abrasive mixture which consists of iron fillings, sand, sand powdered glass.

Q In connection with sabotage work, how would that mixture be useful?

A Abrasives of this type, of course, are damaging to any lubrication system; and as employed in sabotage,

abrasives are introduced in the crankcases of motors or into any

1598

machinery where lubricated surfaces are in contact.

Q Were there any other objects that differed in description from the original ones found on Long Island?

A The only other differences were minor, such as with the pen and pencil sets the times were different. For

example, in this inventory there were three of the pen and pencil sets marked 11 to 13 hours, whereas there was only one

set, and with varying time, in the New York cache.

Q Were the boxes and bag and general arrangements similar to the boxes, bag, and general arrangements of the

first group?

A Yes, sir, they were.

Q Were the markings on the boxes similar?

A The markings on the boxes were similar.

Q You refer to what marks?

A The two X’s on the box which contained the delay devices; and the boxes which contained demolition blocks had

no X’s.

The Attorney General. Cross-examine.

Colonel Royall. No questions by the defendants.

Colonel Ristine. No questions.

The President. Are there any questions by any member of the commission? There seem to be none.

The Attorney General. Mr. Stanley.

Colonel Munson. Mr. Stanley, you are reminded that you are still under oath,

Mr. Stanley. Yes, sir.

1599

CHARLES H. STANLEY

was recalled as a witness for the prosecution and, having been previously duly sworn, testified further as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q Mr. Stanley, did you go down to Florida with the other agents and Kerling?

A No, sir, I didn’t.

Q Did you see some of the material that was recovered later?

A Some of the clothing. The clothing recovered on Long Island, I saw.

Q Did you show any of that clothing to the defendant Kerling?

A Yes, sir, I did.

Q There are here certain articles of clothing which have already been marked for identification. I show you this fatigue coat. Did you show that to Kerling?

Colonel Royall. May it please the commission, I should like to ask the witness a

question or two.

The President. Is there any objection at this time?

The Attorney General. No.

Questions by Colonel Royall:

Q When was your conversation with Kerling?

A July 1.

Q Who was present?

A Agent Duke.

Colonel Royall. May it please the commission, I myself have serious doubts

whether my objection is well taken in this

1600

instance, but because of the fact that we have objected to the other declarations and confessions of Kerling on the ground of duress and of their not being voluntary, we desired to enter an objection to this, realizing that the Commission’s same ruling will apply.

The President. Unless there is an objection on the part of any member of the Commission, the objection of counsel is not sustained.

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q You showed the coat to Kerling?

A I did.

Q What did he say about that?

A He said this was a similar coat to the type which he wore himself on the submarine from Germany and which he wore to the shore on Long Island—on Florida and he then sent the coat back to the submarine in the rubber boat.

Q What about the fatigue pants, which have been marked as Exhibit P-39 for identification and introduced?

A Yes, sir, I showed these to Kerling.

Q What did he say about them?

A He said this was a similar type of trousers as worn by him from Germany—from Paris—in the submarine and

which was left on the submarine as the time he docked near Florida.

Q What about Exhibit P-22, this cap? What did he say about that? Did you show it to him?

A Yes, this is the cap.

Q What did he say?

A He said this was a similar type of cap as furnished to him and his group in Berlin and worn by them on the submarine

1601

and which he wore ashore. He stated he thought he sent his cap back to the submarine.

Q I show you Exhibit P-28, this shovel. Did you show him that?

A Yes, sir, I did.

Q What did he say to you about this shovel?

A He said this was a similar type of shovel as brought by them from the submarine and which was used in burying the explosives on the beach in Florida.

Q How many shovels did they have?

A He said they only had one. Now, I showed him two, and he picked out one of the shovels.

The Attorney General. No questions.

Colonel Ristine. No questions.

The President. Are there any questions by any member of the commission? There seem to be none. The witness is excused.

1602

The Attorney General. Agent Hirsh. We are now on the case of the defendant Haupt.

Lieutenant Meakin. This witness has not been sworn to secrecy.

Colonel Munson. Mr. Hirsh, in addition to the oath that is usually given a witness, there is an oath of secrecy which the Commission requires shall be taken. I am directed by the Commission to inform you that any violation of the secrecy pledge may result in contempt proceedings or other proceedings of a criminal nature. In taking that oath, you understand this is a fact, do you not?

Mr. Hirsh. Yes, sir.

Colonel Munson. Do you solemnly swear that you will not divulge the proceedings taken in this trial to anyone outside the courtroom until released from your obligation by proper authority or required so to do by such proper authority, so help you God?

Mr. Hirsh. I do.

Colonel Munson. Do you swear that the evidence you shall give in the case now on hearing shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Hirsh. I do.

EARL HIRSH

was called as a witness for the prosecution and testified as follows:

Colonel Munson. Please state your name, address, and occupation.

The Witness. Earl Hirsh, 1900 Bankers Building, Chicago, Illinois; Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

1603

The Attorney General. I will ask to have these waivers marked for identification.

(Three waivers were marked

as Exhibits P-211, P-212,

and P-213 for identification.)

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q Did you apprehend the defendant Haupt?

A Yes, sir, I did.

Q Do you see him in court?

A Yes, sir, I do.

Q Where is he?

A That is Haupt over there, sir.

The Attorney General. Will you stand up, Haupt?

(The defendant Haupt rose.)

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q This one?

A Yes, sir; that is correct.

Q When did you apprehend him?

A Approximately eight minutes after 9 on the morning of June 27, 1942.

Q Where?

A The arrest took place on Webster Street, right at the elevated station just off Cissell Street in Chicago.

Q Where was he taken?

A He was immediately taken to the office of the Federal Bureau of Investigations in Chicago.

Q Did you obtain waivers from him?

A Yes, sir, I did.

Q Did he sign them?

1604

A Yes, sir, he did.

Q I show you prosecution Exhibits 211, 212, and 213 and ask you whether these are the waivers.

A Yes, sir, they are.

Q Signed by Haupt in your presence?

A That is right, sir.

The attorney General. I offer them in evidence.

Colonel Royall. No objection.

(Exhibits P-211, P-212, and

P-213 were offered in evidence

and are as follows:)

(Exhibit P-211)

“Chicago, Ill.

June 27, 1942.

“I, Herbert Haupt, hereby authorize Earl Hirsh, and J. A. Lynch and Frank Meech, Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, United States Department of Justice, to conduct a complete search of my residence located at 2234 N. Freemont Ave.

“These agents are authorized by me to take from my residence any letters, papers, materials or other property which they may desire.

“This written permission is being given by me to the above named Special Agents voluntarily and without threats or promises of any kind.

“(SIGNED) Herbert Haupt

WITNESSES:

Earl Hirsh

John A. Lynch

Frank F. Meech.”

1605

(EXHIBIT P-212)

“Federal Bureau of Investigation

“United States Department of Justice

Chicago, Ill.

June 27, 1942

“I, Herbert Haupt, do hereby consent to remain under the continuous physical supervision of the Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, U. S. Department of Justice, without immediate arraignment, and at such place as may be designed by the said Agents, while information furnished or to be furnished by me regarding any violation of the laws of the United States is being verified.

“This I regard solely as a step necessary for my protection during the progress of this investigation and my consent to this arrangement is, therefore, freely given by me without fear of threat or promise of reward. It is, however, not to be construed as an admission of guilt on my part.

“The foregoing having been read by me and having been to be a true and exact representation of my voluntary decision in the matter, of my own free will I herewith affix my signature in approval thereof.

(Signed) Herbert Haupt

Witness:

Earl Hirsh

Special Agent, F.B.I.

U.S. Dept. of Justice

Frank F. Meech

John A. Lynch

Special Agent, F.B.I

U.S. Dept. of Justice”

1606

(EXHIBIT P-213)

“Chicago, Ill.

June 27, 1942

“I, Herbert Haupt, having been first duly informed by Earl Hirsh, Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation of the Department of Justice, that I have the right not to be removed from the Judicial District in which I was taken into custody without being first arraigned before a duly authorized judicial officer or magistrate and except by virtue of a warrant of removal issued for that purpose, do hereby waive my right to be arraigned before a duly authorized judicial officer or magistrate and my right not to be removed from the said judicial district except by virtue of a warrant or removal issued for that purpose, and do hereby freely consent and agree that I may be forthwith removed by representation of the Department of Justice in their discretion to any judicial district of the United States, either for the purpose of the questioning of for the purpose of being held to answer any criminal charge.

“I am executing this waiver and consent of my own free will, and without any pressure, compulsion or coercion of any kind whatsoever.

“The foregoing document was read to me before I signed it, and I fully understand its meaning and purport.

(Signed) Herbert Haupt

Witnesses:

Earl Hirsh

John A. Lynch

Frank F. Meech”

1607

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q What did you then proceed to do?

A Immediately after he was taken to the office, we searched the prisoner. We took off his clothes in order that a proper search might be made. After that we immediately gave him some other clothing to wear. Right after that he signed the waivers that were just shown me.

Q What did you find on him?

A There were several things found on him. First of all—

Q (interposing) Did you find a billfold on him?

A Yes, sir, that is correct.

The Attorney General. I will ask to have this billfold marked for identification.

(A billfold was marked as

Exhibit P-214 for identification.)

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q Is the billfold shown the witness—Exhibit P-214?

A That is correct, sir.

The President. May I see the billfold?

The Attorney General. Yes, indeed.

I will ask to have this photograph of the billfold marked for identification.

(Photograph of billfold marked as

Exhibit P-214A for identification.)

Q Is Exhibit P-214-A a photograph of the billfold?

A Yes, sir, it is.

1608

The Attorney General. I offer exhibit P-214-A in evidence.

(Exhibit P-214-A was

offered in evidence.)

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q Where did you find the billfold?

A The billfold was found on his person in one of the pockets in his pants.

Q What did you find in it?

A There were two fifty-dollar bills and one ten-dollar bill found in the billfold.

The President. Is there any objection?

Colonel Royall. No, sir; no objection.

The President. Will you let me see a copy of the bill found on the defendant and one found on one of the other group?

The Attorney General. We shall get one. We do not have one in court. We can arrange to do that right away.

I will ask to have this Social Security card and a photograph of it marked for identification.

(Social Security card and photograph

of it were marked as Exhibits

P-215 and P-215-A, respectively,

for identification.)

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q I show you Exhibit P-215 and ask you whether that was found in the billfold.

A Yes, sir. This is a Social Security card that was found on his person.

Q Is this a photograph of it—P-215-A?

A Yes, sir; it is.

1609

Q What did Haupt say to you about that?

A Haupt told me that the Social Security card was a fictitious one and that at the time he attended the sabotage school in Germany it was given to him by Lieutenant Kappe.

Q Who made it out? Did he say?

Colonel Royall. May it please the Commission, may I make certain that the objection of the other seven

defendants to any statements made by the defendant Haupt is carried forward, so that I will not have to rise and do that again?

The President. Have you any remarks in that connection, Colonel Ristine?

Colonel Ristine. He included my client, as I understand it.

Colonel Royall. The record can so show.

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q I think I was asking you whether or not the defendant Haupt said to you that he make out that card, if he did.

A Yes, sir; he did. He said that Lieutenant Kappe, head of the sabotage school in Germany, made out the card.

The Attorney General. I will ask to have this card and the photograph of it marked for identification.

(Selective Service Registration card

and photograph of it were marked

as Exhibits P-216 and P-216-A

respectively for identification.)

Q I show you Exhibit P-216. Was that in the billfold?

A Yes, sir; it was.

Q Is this a photograph of it—P-216-A?

A Yes sir; that is correct.

1610

Q What did the defendant Haupt say about that exhibit, the Registration Certificate?

A He said that he had actually registered for selective service on the morning of June 22, 1942, in Chicago at

Board 66, and this was the actual card received by him.

Q Did he say whether or not the signature appearing on this card was his?

A Yes, sir; he said that that was his signature.

Q Did he say whether he had any former certificate?

A Yes, sir. He made a statement that he had been given two fictitious card by Lieutenant Kappe there in the

espionage school in Germany.

Q Do you mean two fictitious registration cards?

A That is correct, sir.

Q Did he say what the purpose was of the giving him two such cards?

A Well, the purpose of that was in the event he needed these cards in the future to avoid the Selective Service Act,

he was to use them.

Q What did he say he had done with them?

A He stated that he had burned one card but that he had retained the other.

Q Did he say whether he showed those cards to the Registrar who was registering him as shown by this exhibit?

A No, sir; he didn’t give any such statement.

Q Did he say whether he said anything to this Registrar of Cook County when he was registering?

A No, sir; he merely stated that he went there to

1611

The Attorney General. I offer these two photographs in evidence. They are P-215-A and 216-A. I ask that they be

placed in the original record.

Colonel Royall. No objection.

(Exhibits P-215-A and P-216-A

were thereupon offered in evidence.)

The Attorney General. That is all.

Colonel Royall. No questions.

Colonel Ristine. No questions.

1612

The President. There seem to be no questions by the Commission. The witness is excused.

The Witness. Thank you.

(The witness left the stand.)

Colonel Royall. Will he be available tomorrow if we need him?

The Attorney General. I would prefer that you ask him now, but of course he will be available.

Colonel Royall. May it please the Commission, I am sure you have observed our efforts to try to save time. I do not want to ask too many favors, but before this statement of Haupt is read—and I assume that is the next thing?

The Attorney General. Yes. I would like to have it in evidence now.

Colonel Royall. I would like to have it read as an entirety. It will be utterly impossible to finish in this afternoon without holding considerably past 5:30.

The Attorney General. There are two statements. The first one is comparatively short, only four or five pages.

Colonel Royall. That is all right, sir. I did not know that they had a short statement to read. I have no objection to that.

The Attorney General. We will call Mr. Rice.

Colonel Munson. Mr. Rice, you are reminded that you are still under oath.

Mr. Rice. Yes, sir.

B. DOWNEY RICE

was recalled as a witness for the prosecution and, having been previously duly sworn, testified further as follows:

The President. We are willing to have the whole state-

1613

ment read if you wish.

The Attorney General. We will see how we get along, Mr. President.

Probably the first part will take a little time.

Mr. Rice has been sworn, has he not?

Colonel Munson. Yes.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Questions by the Attorney General:

Q Did you take the defendant Haupt’s statement?

A Yes.

Q Who was present?

A Special Agent Earl Hirsh and myself.

Q Anyone else?

A No one besides the stenographers.

Q When was the statement taken?

A We took a statement from Haupt from June 27 to June 30, and another one on July 3.

Q I am not speaking of any signed statements that you took from Haupt. How many signed statements did you take from Haupt?

A I might explain, sir, that we took two statements, one of which was begun in Chicago and finished in New York, and the second of which was taken in New York. Both were signed in New York.

Q Two separate statements were signed in New York?

A Yes, sir.

Q I show you what has been marked for identification as P-217. Is this Haupt’s first statement that was signed in New York?

A Yes, sir. It is 19 pages. It is the first state-

1614

ment signed in New York.

Q And that was taken over a period of two or three days? How long was it taken?

A It was taken over a period of three days.

Q And what is it dated?

A June 28, 1942.

Q And thereafter it is dated June 29, 1942, on the 8^th page; is that right?

A Yes, sir.

Q How long did you question the defendant Haupt before you took that statement?

A We first began taking the statement after having talked to Haupt for a period of, I would say, three hours.

Q And then how was it taken? Did you dictate it to a stenographer?

A It was both dictated by the agents and partly by Haupt. The material in the statement was first talked over with Haupt and then dictated and incorporated in the statement.

Q Did he make any correction in the statement?

A Yes, sir; he did.

Q Before signing it?

A Yes; he did. Those corrections that he made were made by him in ink, and he has initialed the line next to the corrections.

Q He initialed each page and signed it in your presence?

A Yes, sir.

The Attorney General. I offer the statement in evidence and ask the witness to read it.

Colonel Royall. There is no objection by the defendant

1615

Haupt.

(Statement of Defendant Haupt

dated June 28, 1942, marked

P-217, was received in evidence.)

The Attorney General. You may read the statement.

The witness (reading):

(EXHIBIT P-217)

“Chicago, Illinois,

June 28, 1942.

“I, Herbert Hans Haupt, make the following voluntary statement to Earl Hirsh and B. D. Rice who have advised me they are Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and that I do not have to make a statement. No threats or promises have been made to me and I am giving this of my own free will.

“I was born December 21, 1919 at Stettin, Germany. My parents were Hans and Erma Froehling Haupt. In 1923 my father came to the United States and my mother brought me to this country in 1925. My father had been in the German Army during the first World War and after coming to the United States went to Chicago where he has remained since. He has worked as a brick layer and mason contractor and does some painting jobs.

“I was educated in the Chicago public schools and attended Lane Technical High School and Amundsen High School. I did not graduate. I am an only child and derived my citizenship through my father who is a naturalized citizen. I left school at the age of eighteen and started as an apprentice optician and have worked at this trade for Simpson’s Optical Company. I remained with

1616

this firm for about two years until about June 14, 1941 when I decided to leave this country because I had become

involved in some trouble with a girl. This girl, Gerta Stuckeman, 1752 Albion Avenue, Chicago, Illinois, advised me

that she was pregnant and wanted me to marry her. My mother was in the hospital at the time and I did not want to tell her about this so I decided to leave the country and go to Mexico.

“I talked two friends of mine into going with me. They were Wolfgang Wergin, 5416 South Wood Street, Chicago, Illinois and Hugo Trusken. These boys were both German and Trusken was working in his father’s garage on Western Avenue near Clybourn. Our total amount of money when we left was about $80.00 apiece and we went in Wergin’s car, a 1933 Chevrolet.

“Before we left I got a letter written in Spanish from a Spanish girl, whose name I can’t recall but who lived in the corner apartment at Montrose and Francisco. She had relatives in Nicaragua and directed the letter to one of them. We were supposed to locate him and he would give us a job on a plantation. I had no reason for wanting to go to Mexico or Nicaragua other than I wanted to leave the country and see something of these places.

“On June 16, 1941 we left Chicago after saying goodbye to my parents, Walter Froehling and Gerta Stuckeman among others. It took five days to drive to Nueva Laredo, Mexico and I recall that we stopped in St. Louis and Dallas, Texas. I sent several postcards along the way to Walter Froehling, my folks and to William Vallee,

1617

1752 Cornelia, who works in the scientific department of Simpson’s Optical Company and who was a personal friend.

“At Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, one of the United States customs officials asked us if anyone wanted to drive a car to California and Trusken accepted the job and left us. I have not seen him since but believe he is in Waukeegan, Illinois, working in a garage. I learned this from my mother.

“Wergin and I entered Mexico at Nuevo Laredo and by way of Monterey drove to Mexico City. After about a week in Mexico City we met a man named Hans Sass in the Lopez Restaurant where we had been eating our meals. Sass was a German who had been in the United States and said he had been in Mexico for some time. We first knew him under the name of Paul Smith and later he called himself Dr. Reichel. Sass told us where we could live more cheaply and we moved to the rooming house he suggested. We became friendly with him and when our money had about run out he suggested that we go to see Von Wallenburg as we could not go to Nicaragua without a visa and were unable to work in Mexico without certain papers. We told Von Wallenburg, an official in the German Consulate in Mexico City, that we were German boys and needed help or a job and asked him what he could do for us. He said that due to the Black List, many German salesmen were without work and he could send us to Tokyo to work in a monastery as handyman. He apparently thought we wanted to return to Germany and said because of the Russian War we probably could not go back. He

1618

gave us train tickets to Moncinillo and bought tickets from there to Japan. He also gave us about twenty pesos for food en route. We signed a contract stipulating that we would pay back the ticket money after the war was over.

“About July 26, 1941 we left Mexico on the Gynio Maru and landed at Yokohama. Sass also was on this trip with Wergin and myself. There were some other Germans on board who had come from South America. We had been directed to go to the German Consulate at Yokohama but when we landed we were met at the boat by representatives of the German Consulate and Japanese police and taken to a hotel in Yokohama were the German passports which had been issued to us by Von Wallenburg in Mexico City were taken away from us and the Japanese gave us a permit to stay in Japan. The consulate men gave us train fare to Tokyo.

“The following day about fourteen of us who had come over on the boat were taken to Tokyo by the Consulate officials to a hotel. While in Tokyo I sent a cablegram to my parents telling them I was all right and giving them greetings. Our group was taken to the German House in Tokyo where we were told that we would be given one hundred yen to live on a week and told to go out to the monastery and look the place over to decide whether we wanted to work or not. We went out to the monastery which was at Shingasaki, about a four hour train ride from Tokyo, and found that German monks were operating a farm there, but that laboring conditions were very poor. There was no sanitation and the workmen were ill. We returned to Tokyo as we did not like the place.

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“Sass went to work at the monastery.

“We were told by a Consulate employee who was formerly a steward on the S. S. Columbus of the Hamburg-American Line, who was operating the German House, that as an alternative we could go to the mountains and live upon money which they would furnish but we would have to sign for it and contract to pay it back later on. We signed for this and went into the mountains where after two days we received a telegram from Tokyo from the former steward telling us to return to Tokyo.

“When we arrived in Tokyo we were told by the former steward that it would not be possible to continue giving us money as long as we didn’t take the job at the monastery and that it would be necessary for us to sign on a German boat returning to Germany as seamen. Sass, Wergin and myself, as well as three other men, were taken in a small boat to the Sohonhorst, a large liner which was tied up in Kobi for about two weeks where we were trained with other men in the principles of navigation and seamanship. We were not allowed to go ashore during this time and the training was given to us by the ship’s officers who were German naval men.

“Wergin, Sass, Arthur Riegel and myself, were taken one evening in a small boat to the German freighter, ‘Elsa-Esburger’ which was in the Kobi Harbor and after we reached that vessel we were told that they were taking us to sea. The ‘Elsa-Esburger’ was carrying a cargo consisting mostly of rubber and put out to sea that evening. We traveled as passengers on this boat for about two days until we met another German boat at sea. This

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was also a freighter but the identifying marks had been obliterated. We transferred the cargo from the ‘Elsa-Esburger’ to this ship at sea. Food stocks were also transferred from the Elsa-Esburger to this ship and we assisted in this loading operation. The Elsa-Esburger left us and we started on a voyage which lasted one hundred and seven days before we arrived at Bordeaux, France. My job was as lookout in the Crow’s nest and as oiler. We went around the horn of South America to get to Bordeaux.

“On the day we arrived at Bordeaux, Germany declared war on the United States. Everyone except Wergin and myself were allowed to leave the ship. The Gestapo and German naval police came and examined the passports which had been given us while we were on the Sehonhorst and we were given a passport to go to Paris, France. Wergin and myself were taken to Paris by a naval officer and we left Sass and Riegel in Bordeaux. I have never seen or heard from Riegel since but later received a card from Sass in Germany telling that he had signed up with the mountain troops of the S. S.

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“A German naval officer went with Wergin and myself to Paris and took us to a hotel, where there were quite a number of other German people who were being returned to Germany, and we were given heavy clothing and shoes. We were then put on a train with about 40 other people and sent to Zaarbrucken. At Zaarbrucken our papers were examined and we spent the night at a home with the other people on the train. The following day the members of this group were given tickets to the homes of their relatives in Germany and it was here that Wergin and I separated.

“He went to the home of his relatives in Koenigsberg in East Prussia and I went to Stettin to the home of my grandmother, Anna Froehling. She is my mother’s mother. I remained with relatives in Stettin for several months, during which time I was investigated by the Gestapo, but was unable to find a job because I couldn’t get a working permit.

“About three months after my arrival in Germany a medal was sent to me from Berlin which had been bestowed on me because I had run the British blockade into Germany. Shortly after this I received a letter from the Kaukakus, signed by a man named Walter Cappe. This letter made me an offer to come to Berlin and write a story about my trip to Germany and offered to pay my expenses while in Berlin writing. I assumed that the Kaukaus was a paper or magazine. I answered the letter advising that I would accept the offer but was unable to raise fare to Berlin and later I

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received a telegram from Cappe wanting to know what had happened and again asking me to come to Berlin. This time I obtained money through relatives and went to Berlin.

“I went to the address of the Kaukaus, which was an apartment building, and there met Cappe, who introduced himself as an Army Lieutenant and interviewed me about my trip over. He informed that he had learned about me through Hans Sass. He gave me expense money for my trip to Berlin and told me to return to Stettin.

“While in Stettin Wolfgang Wergin visited me. He stayed there for several days and left to go back to Koenigsberg and I have not seen him since. He has written that he is working in a railway station handling baggage in either Dansig or Koenigsberg. A short time later I received a telegram from Cappe telling me to come to Berlin, which I did.

“When I saw him this time he asked me if I knew that my mother’s brother was in a concentration camp and my father’s brother had been and I answered in the affirmative. He asked me if I hadn’t noticed that I couldn’t get a job and whether or not the Gestapo and police had been bothering me, which they had. He pointed out that the only thing left for me to do was to return to the United States and I agreed with him. He gave me some more money and I returned to Stettin. About the end of April, 1942, I received another telegram from him telling me to come to Berlin. I took my be-

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longings with me to Berlin and saw Cappe. I understood after taking with Cappe the second time that the purpose of my proposed trip to the United States would be in connection with assisting the German cause, possibly by acting as a courier for espionage messages or some other work.

“When I arrived in Berlin the last time I was called into conference with seven other men by Cappe and he told us that we were to be trained in a school outside Berlin to learn methods of sabotage in order that we might go to the United States to carry out a program of sabotage there. The men there besides myself were: Edward Kerling, Herman Neubauer, Werner Thiel, George Dasch, Jerome Svensen, a man known to me as Richard Quiren and Henry Kaynor. We were taken to a country club about 60 kilometers from Berlin by George Dasch and met Cappe there. At this place we were joined by Ernest Peter Burger, a red headed man named Scotty and another man whose name I can’t recall but who was a relative of Dasch—Barth (H.H.)

“For nearly a month we remained at this country place receiving instruction from chemists, Cappe, Rhenhold Barth and Dr. Schultz. The general program at the school which was operated by the German Army was to have sports in the morning, followed by classes in chemistry in which we were taught the various compounds making up explosives and how to make various types of bombs and other ways of destroying vital

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parts of aluminum plants, railroad trains and canal locks. Our main objectives were the aluminum plants. We were to destroy the sources of power to these plants. We were also given the names and locations of these plants and I remember that one of them was Alcoa in Tennessee. The course also included practical problems which we carried out in Paris and we were also told to write out the story of the character that we were to adopt upon arriving in the United States. We were also instructed in various methods of communicating by means of secret writing. We had a little training in the use of firearms.

“During the course of the school Scotty dropped out and a man named Billy Dempsey, formerly a fight promoter in the United States attended the school for several days. Upon completion of our training we were given money and a vacation until May 12^th when we reassembled in Berlin. At this time we signed contracts which stipulated the amounts of money we were to be paid for our services. My contract called for the payment of 250 marks per month to be deposited to my credit in a Berlin bank.

“From May 12^th to May 15^th we were taken on a tour of aluminum plants in Germany and the vital parts of these plants which would cripple them if destroyed were shown to us. We were also shown railroad engines and canal locks and how to cripple

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them.

“At the time of signing my contract for payment I also signed a pledge not to disclose what had occurred or what I was to do even to my relatives in Germany under penalty of death. I was also given to understand that in the event I was arrested in the United States I was not to disclose this training and program also under penalty of death. We were given to understand that our job was similar to that of a soldier. As part of my reward I was promised a job in my trade as an optician.”

The Attorney General. That is the end of the first portion of it, if the Commission would like to take a pause now.

The President. How many more pages are there?

The Witness. I have finished page 7 and it goes to 19.

The President. We will adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow morning.

Colonel Royall. May it please the Commission, if the Commission wants to complete this statement now I do not have any serious objection, but we are in this situation about the 9:30 in the morning. We have to consult with three additional defendants, because there are two more after this and there are developments all the time during the trial. My own opinion is that we would not save any time by meeting at 9:30, because we would probably have to pause during the hearing to consult. If we can have those men here by 8:30 in the morning and then meet at 10, I believe we can move along with rapidity,

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The President. You would prefer then to finish this afternoon, would you?

Colonel Royall. Well, sir, it is immaterial whether we finish this afternoon or not, but I would like to have until 10 in the morning.

Have you any wishes to express, Colonel Ristine?

Colonel Ristine. No. If the Commission pleases, I am at your disposal.

The President. What are your wishes, Mr. Attorney General?

The Attorney General. I have none. I am happy to suit the convenience of the Commission.

The President. We will adjourn until 10 o’clock tomorrow morning.

(At 5:30 o’clock p.m., an adjournment was taken until the next day, Saturday, July 18, 1942, at 10 o’clock a.m.)